Shooty cavalry

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:14 pm

In playing the SS beta, I've had plenty of games using and/or facing these types of troops and something occurs to me. I once played a TT game as Mongols. The cavalry were mostly deployed in single rank so they could evade charging knights. Both sides shoot in the shooting phase on the TT.

The problem was, when the Mongols evaded, they ended up facing the wrong way to shoot, thus losing half of their shooting capability. Furthermore, turning back around and moving with cavalry is considered an impossible move, so any shooting would have to be at anyone in range at the begining of the move.

Now, on the PC, when you charge that Mongol cavalry and they evade, they can turn around and ride back into shooting range. Plus they never suffered the down time that they would have on the TT. In addition, these cavalry are always considered a skirmisher target for fire, but a closed order unit for melee.

The result is a super troop type. I'm not sure how to fix this or even if it needs to be fixed, but I must say I'm loving all these Mamaluks and Ghilmen and Mongols when I'm commanding them. I'm posting this here rather than the beta forum because it's a feature throughout the FoG PC world.

Deeter

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:26 pm

Well, I dont know if this is an issue or a balance thing, but it certainly opens the door for feature requests:
allow formation changes, ie skirmish order or closed order which would simulate the TT single base deep vs mult base deep (would only be for non light cavalry to make things simple)
only the "skirmish order" can evade but shoot better and take less casualties form incoming fire
I would envision it would take a unit a full movement allowance to change back and forth (or perhaps most of it )

ianiow · Post by **ianiow** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:40 pm

Perhaps you could tie in the formation with the type of order they are given.

Always evade = 1 rank
Always stand = 2 ranks

not sure what to do with the computer default option. Do away with it?

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:44 pm

I would just have the UI have the ability to set evasion levels greyed out if the unit is in a formation that cant legally evade

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:46 pm

We've been living with the formation thing for some time, but I'm more impressed now by the shooting disparity. My knights are chasing shooty types and getting shot to pieces in a way that never happens on the TT.

But while we're talking about formations, whatever happened to the orb?

Deeter

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:49 pm

deeter wrote:We've been living with the formation thing for some time, but I'm more impressed now by the shooting disparity. My knights are chasing shooty types and getting shot to pieces in a way that never happens on the TT.

But while we're talking about formations, whatever happened to the orb?

Deeter

Ooh, i would argue no orbs for the PC, you would never be able to outflank and get the oh so fun rear hits on any battle line (clever players would simply "orb" up their rear rank troops

)
By the way , where did the term orb ever come from, seems odd and implies a circle?

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:25 pm

It is. It comes from the Roman orbus formation where cut off infantry would circle up for all-around defense.

Deeter

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:50 pm

deeter wrote:It is. It comes from the Roman orbus formation where cut off infantry would circle up for all-around defense.

Deeter

Ah, a schiltron!

Ironically, I dont think any Roman troops can form an orb in the TT

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:20 pm

I thought any HF outside of a certain distance from the enemy could form an orb. Never done it myself so I'm not certain.

Deeter

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:25 pm

deeter wrote:I thought any HF outside of a certain distance from the enemy could form an orb. Never done it myself so I'm not certain.

Deeter

I thought it was only off/def spears or pikes with at least 4 bases (which i think would preclude most Romans as dont triarri only come in 2's? , doh)

mceochaidh · Post by **mceochaidh** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:00 pm

I am not sure what the Mongol cavalry cost, as I am not in the test group, but if they are super troops, they should cost like super troops!

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:30 pm

Deeter wrote:

""Now, on the PC, when you charge that Mongol cavalry and they evade, they can turn around and ride back into shooting range. Plus they never suffered the down time that they would have on the TT. In addition, these cavalry are always considered a skirmisher target for fire, but a closed order unit for melee. ""

You are are refering to regular cavalry correct (ie non lights?)
This sounds like the old Bosphoran discussion ie the protected bow sword cavalry get to evade shoot, and fight pretty good too with the swords but since they are not LANCERS get a greater deal of protection from missles...

I would argue that all non light missle troops(cavalry AND infantry) have a penalty on shooting if they move and then shoot, and a move would include changing facing as well..... Might reduce uber Mongols.
(actually I think that WAS the case like 5 patches ago and was changed, cant recall the reason for the change)

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:44 pm

Yes, I was not referring to LH, only cavalry. Although my main point was about shooting. I couldn't help brining up the old Bosporan argument.

There was a penalty for moving and shooting but I think that was dropped when they did away with the free facing for undrilled bowmen.

Deeter