Terrain Tweaks

[azrael86]

I take it you mean submit it as part of the list.

yes

Although it seems a bit arbitrary to do this before you know what you are facing.

Its also quite arbitrary submitting what troops you must use and what order of march they must be in before you know where or what you are fighting

That has more historical reality - the army musters before it marches.

[philqw78]

That has more historical reality - the army musters before it marches.

As much as Aztecs fighting HYW Scottish. Which is what we are trying to make rules for here. Bell End

[gozerius]

Maybe a simple fix like this:
The player who wins the PBI roll must select a terrain type from his own list if his dr was even, from his opponents list if his dr was odd.
This will allow the +0 armies to select their own list when they win against the +4 army, and the +4 armies will have a greater chance of fighting on foreign soil when they win. The winner will still get all the advantages of selecting terrain pieces first. Which means that Cv/LH heavy armies will get more open battlefields when they win. But they won't be guaranteed fighting in the steppes every game.
Should improve on variety of battlefields. And that's what we want isn't it? Variety?

[david53]

OK, so you are claiming that retiring* ISN'T defensive?



*AKA running like girls, or like those Boer auxiliaries in Zulu

Retiring is a tactic not a stratagy such as defensive.

Rubbish it can be either. The Russians in 1812 and 1941 retired as a strategy. However strategy isn't a part of Fog or any other TTG system. So yes, taking a tactical defensive is exactly what steppe armies do. And as such, it is no different from the HYW english who use strategic aggression and then deploy between two woods.

So what you want to do is still on top of a hill behind your fortifactions awaiting people to charge up at you while both your flanks are protected by steep hills but thats not defensive is it not at all, its a foot tactic.

[david53]

That has more historical reality - the army musters before it marches.

As much as Aztecs fighting HYW Scottish. Which is what we are trying to make rules for here. Bell End

What happened to the elephant

[philqw78]

What happened to the elephant

I was promoted (?) to tent guard

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

I was going to comment that Dave needed to keep up as Phil had changed to Judge Dredd 59 posts ago. Then I noticed that both of the last two post by Phil are at 4059 posts. Has phil been denied a post.

Paul

[philqw78]

Now this and the last 2 will be 4060. For now.

[azrael86]

Rubbish it can be either. The Russians in 1812 and 1941 retired as a strategy. However strategy isn't a part of Fog or any other TTG system. So yes, taking a tactical defensive is exactly what steppe armies do. And as such, it is no different from the HYW english who use strategic aggression and then deploy between two woods.

So what you want to do is still on top of a hill behind your fortifactions awaiting people to charge up at you while both your flanks are protected by steep hills but thats not defensive is it not at all, its a foot tactic.

Not at all. I want a fair battle. However the LH brigade, while deriding the extreme negative tactic of adopting a defensive position, also appear to want to have their cake by claiming that repeated evasion from an enemy who can't catch you is in some way more acceptable.

It is also true that many Cv armies are just as bad. armoured superior cav running away from protected medium foot in the open.

[nikgaukroger]

I take it you mean submit it as part of the list.

yes

Although it seems a bit arbitrary to do this before you know what you are facing.

Its also quite arbitrary submitting what troops you must use and what order of march they must be in before you know where or what you are fighting

That has more historical reality - the army musters before it marches.

It is, however, rather unusual if the army does not know who it is marching against - armies were usually mustered with a specific enemy in mind. Plus the march order could be varied depending on circumstances - the Sambre is an excellent example of that.

[david53]

It is also true that many Cv armies are just as bad. armoured superior cav running away from protected medium foot in the open.

Thats strange even if you don't have a lance its evens at impact at most and more than likely evens in melee and again as a large amount of medium foot are average you could die very quickly and me being mad i would charge you without a thought if you were in the open.... but then i am mad....

[grahambriggs]

It is also true that many Cv armies are just as bad. armoured superior cav running away from protected medium foot in the open.

Thats strange even if you don't have a lance its evens at impact at most and more than likely evens in melee and again as a large amount of medium foot are average you could die very quickly and me being mad i would charge you without a thought if you were in the open.... but then i am mad....

It might be that it's a number of bases thing - the cavalry need to be in one rank to have the option to evade. So it could be a BG of 10 MF charging 4 cavalry in single rank. That gives the cavalry an interesting decision.

[peterrjohnston]

The player who wins the PBI roll must select a terrain type from his own list if his dr was even, from his opponents list if his dr was odd.

I quite like this solution. Simple and adds variety. It's effectively saying the PBI winner has initiative in the opponent's territory, or it's own. Currently the PBI winner always has initiative in it's own territory, ie apparently steppe armies never invaded anywhere.

[azrael86]

It is also true that many Cv armies are just as bad. armoured superior cav running away from protected medium foot in the open.

Thats strange even if you don't have a lance its evens at impact at most and more than likely evens in melee and again as a large amount of medium foot are average you could die very quickly and me being mad i would charge you without a thought if you were in the open.... but then i am mad....

Really? Obviously not any old MF, but good MF. For instance:

Almughavars with spear, dailami or longbow.

[philqw78]

It is also true that many Cv armies are just as bad. armoured superior cav running away from protected medium foot in the open.

Thats strange even if you don't have a lance its evens at impact at most and more than likely evens in melee and again as a large amount of medium foot are average you could die very quickly and me being mad i would charge you without a thought if you were in the open.... but then i am mad....

Really? Obviously not any old MF, but good MF. For instance:

Almughavars with spear, dailami or longbow.

Watch drilled MF get out of their way as well though. Can't blame the cav for being prudent.

[azrael86]

Prudent?
surely you mean 'discreet'?

btw my MF only dance for pike or legions

[lawrenceg]

Steppe armies always fight in the open.

(culled from the DBMM yahoo group)

Starting with the secret history (cos I'm reading it just now)...

1201: Temuljin and Ong Khan attack Jamulka (the rival Mongol leader).

First battle, Koyten: Temuljin's troops attack up steep wooded hills. Cavalry
on both sides is described as going forward, retiring, reforming their lines
then attacking again several times. Temuljins tribal allies form a 'jada'
(thunderstorm) formation and force their opponents into ravines winning the
battle.

Second battle, Erguine River: Jamulka's troops use pavaises (the Mongol term is
'square shields' but the Chinese documents are pavaise/mantlet) and palisades to
defend thickly wooded islands in the river. Temuljin's troops dismount and
attack. Stalemate the first day, intermittent fighting overnight then an renewed
attack at dawn dispels Jamilka's army.

1202: Against the Tartars
Featureless battlefield, so the Tartars build a 'fortress', this is assaulted
(with heavy Mongol losses). The defeated Tartars are eliminated.

1202: Ong Khan (Kerait) attacks and defeats the Merkid at the battle of Barkuin
Hollow - an old impact crater, wooded slopes and a marshy bottom.

1202: Temuljin and Ong Khan face up to the Naimen across the Kara Seul river.
Ong Khan withdraws at night, leaving his campfires burning. In the morning the
Mongols withdraw across a mountain pass. The Naimen decide to chase the Kerait
and defeat them in a running battle along the Selenge river (wooded banks).


Two years of typical Mongol warfare and typical Mongol battles.

Tom..

[shall]

One thing we are considering is to allow the player who wins the PBI roll to either:

Choose terrain and deploy second move second
or
Let opponent choose terrain and deploy first and move first

Would allow high PBI foot armies to move first for instance.

Si

[philqw78]

One thing we are considering is to allow the player who wins the PBI roll to either:

Choose terrain and deploy second move second
or
Let opponent choose terrain and deploy first and move first

Would allow high PBI foot armies to move first for instance.

Si

I think choose terrain, deploy first, move second. Or. Opponents choice deploy second move first would be fairer. And historically excusable as if you choose your terrain the enemy are coming to you.

[grahambriggs]

One thing we are considering is to allow the player who wins the PBI roll to either:

Choose terrain and deploy second move second
or
Let opponent choose terrain and deploy first and move first

Would allow high PBI foot armies to move first for instance.

Si

Problem is Si you don't have high PBI foot armies. Most they can have is +2 with IC. So if you consider a PBI steppe army with a PBI of 4 will mostly win that roll: the first option is wthe one they have at the moment. The second option could be an advantage to them in some circumstances.

So this surely gives more choice to a PBI4 steppe army - another thing in their favour (assuming they'll make more good choices than bad).

Did you want that to happen?