Teleporting Cavalry using Interpenetration

[stefanjhill]

Hi,

Apologies if this has already been covered already.

In one of my first FoG games we became unstuck about interpenetrations.

If I have a long line of LF can I pass through this 'along the line' with my Cv? This effectively allows you to move Cv (or other BG's) considerably further than the normal MU. Are we just not reading the rules right? Also the rules for Commanders allow them to move again far further than 7 MU by using interpenetration.

Also when declaring a Charge do you require 'line of sight' or just be able to make legal contact in the Impact phase. By this I mean that if I have 2 BG's wishing to charge to differing enemy BG's but one of my BG's is behind another in the Impact phase. Can I still declare the charges and then when my front BG charges then charge the BG behind now that it's path is clear?

Thanks in advance,
Stefan.

[david53]

Hi,

Apologies if this has already been covered already.

In one of my first FoG games we became unstuck about interpenetrations.

If I have a long line of LF can I pass through this 'along the line' with my Cv? This effectively allows you to move Cv (or other BG's) considerably further than the normal MU. Are we just not reading the rules right? Also the rules for Commanders allow them to move again far further than 7 MU by using interpenetration.

Also when declaring a Charge do you require 'line of sight' or just be able to make legal contact in the Impact phase. By this I mean that if I have 2 BG's wishing to charge to differing enemy BG's but one of my BG's is behind another in the Impact phase. Can I still declare the charges and then when my front BG charges then charge the BG behind now that it's path is clear?

Thanks in advance,
Stefan.

Yes your troops can interpentrate and move further than the movement allows.

[hammy]

At least until FoG version 2.0 you will be able to do that. It is high on the list of things that are very likely to be removed "when the revolution comes"

[stefanjhill]

Good. It's all sorts of silly. I guess you know how far a Cv can move when shuttled along an 8 long row of LF. I got a right royal surprise when the opposing Cv basically moved from flank A to flank B in one move! Surprised this wasn't errata'd already, it really must knock a hole in the "use FoG for historical re-fights" idea. I hope that maximum movement becomes MAXIMUM movement...

Cheers for the reply,

S.

[Polkovnik]

, it really must knock a hole in the "use FoG for historical re-fights" idea.

Well it doesn't come up that much to completely invalidate FOG as a set of rules for historical refights. LF are usually in two ranks, and it is quite unusaul to interpenetrate sideways. Unless your opponent was deliberately using his LF like that to allow the cavalry to move further, in which case I could suggest an appropriate course of action, involving your foot and his dangly bits.

[pyruse]

Neat trick if you have lots of cheap light foot in your army.
You put them in a long line behind your main battle line, and use them to teleport mounted reserves from one side of the battlefield to the other.

[MatthewP]

I can't be certain, but I think you only pass through the bg you reach. All the others are pushed out of the way. Can be very messy.

[david53]

, it really must knock a hole in the "use FoG for historical re-fights" idea.

Well it doesn't come up that much to completely invalidate FOG as a set of rules for historical refights. LF are usually in two ranks, and it is quite unusaul to interpenetrate sideways. Unless your opponent was deliberately using his LF like that to allow the cavalry to move further, in which case I could suggest an appropriate course of action, involving your foot and his dangly bits.

I've had it deliberatly done only once, other times you know its not planned thats what happens ie you charge and the lf move through two proper units behind.

[deadtorius]

Also when declaring a Charge do you require 'line of sight' or just be able to make legal contact in the Impact phase. By this I mean that if I have 2 BG's wishing to charge to differing enemy BG's but one of my BG's is behind another in the Impact phase. Can I still declare the charges and then when my front BG charges then charge the BG behind now that it's path is clear?

Page 52 under charges states that "To be allowed to declare a charge, there must be a visible enemy base that can be "legally contacted by the charging battle group within its normal move distance....."

If you are behind another friendly unit and you don't have line of sight to the charge target you can not charge until the front unit has gotten out of the way and you can see whats up front. That means no charges till your next turn when you will have a clear line of sight.
If both of your units can claim line of sight to their individual targets then I think they could both declare charges and charge different targets moving one out of the way of the other.

[hammy]

Interpenetration is only ever through the BG you reach. Other friendly BGs are pushed away to make room.

To declare a charge it must be possible for a BG to declare a legal charge if no other BGs move. You cannot interpenetrate when you charge but you can drop a base back.

[stefanjhill]

Interpenetration is only ever through the BG you reach. Other friendly BGs are pushed away to make room.

To declare a charge it must be possible for a BG to declare a legal charge if no other BGs move. You cannot interpenetrate when you charge but you can drop a base back.

Thanks for that. That covers the question. What we had was a "could charge if the unit in front charged first" issue during the game. We ruled that in the declaration phase that the charge had to be completely legal as you have confirmed. Thanks for that.

There is an example of the rulebook that has a shock troop of Cv charging through friendly BG's to an enemy that they don't have line of sight too. How does this work? Is this always the case, that shock troops must check for charging even if they could normally be allowed to charge?

Just trying to clarify the rules where there was doubt in reading the rules. Having hung up my Greeks when DBMM came out I'm having a very exciting time learning FoG. The Impact vs Melee phase is a fantastic system and once more I find myself planning for the next toy soldier "fix".

While I agree the language needs to be a bit clearer - for example what is line of sight - the mechanics and basic system work like a charm. That combined with a set of anicents rules that don't look like they were whipped up on a home printer = a winner.

Keep up the good work.
S.

[lawrenceg]

There is an example of the rulebook that has a shock troop of Cv charging through friendly BG's to an enemy that they don't have line of sight too. How does this work? Is this always the case, that shock troops must check for charging even if they could normally be allowed to charge?

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could normally be allowed to charge.

and

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could NOT normally be allowed to charge (when the reason they could not normally charge is because they are blocked by friends).

[david53]

There is an example of the rulebook that has a shock troop of Cv charging through friendly BG's to an enemy that they don't have line of sight too. How does this work? Is this always the case, that shock troops must check for charging even if they could normally be allowed to charge?

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could normally be allowed to charge.

and

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could NOT normally be allowed to charge (when the reason they could not normally charge is because they are blocked by friends).

I have a feeling if thats the case you have to burst through your own troops i think this happened to be when playing against rodger at Derby last year...might be wrong though

[stefanjhill]

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could NOT normally be allowed to charge (when the reason they could not normally charge is because they are blocked by friends).

Thanks, sorry this is what I meant. So this implies line of sight can be drawn through BG's?

Thanks again,
S.

[lawrenceg]

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could NOT normally be allowed to charge (when the reason they could not normally charge is because they are blocked by friends).

Thanks, sorry this is what I meant. So this implies line of sight can be drawn through BG's?

Thanks again,
S.

BGs do not block vision, if that is what you mean, though I'm not sure where it says that in the book. They do obstruct "line of sight" for shooting purposes.

[stefanjhill]

Shock troops must check for charging even if they could NOT normally be allowed to charge (when the reason they could not normally charge is because they are blocked by friends).

Thanks, sorry this is what I meant. So this implies line of sight can be drawn through BG's?

Thanks again,
S.

BGs do not block vision, if that is what you mean, though I'm not sure where it says that in the book. They do obstruct "line of sight" for shooting purposes.

Thanks, I guess the difference between LoS and LoV needs to be cleared up, as some may see those two concepts as identical. As we argued in the game I had. The argument went something like. "If I can see it, why can't I volley arrows over the front friendly BG and into the enemy?". The conclusion we came is that there aren't any volley fire rules, so you can't. I would be nice to see a clarification of (a) when you can declare a legal charge and (b) LoS rules with regards to BG's not only terrain.

Musings from our first games,
S.

[grahambriggs]

Thanks, I guess the difference between LoS and LoV needs to be cleared up, as some may see those two concepts as identical. As we argued in the game I had. The argument went something like. "If I can see it, why can't I volley arrows over the front friendly BG and into the enemy?". The conclusion we came is that there aren't any volley fire rules, so you can't. I would be nice to see a clarification of (a) when you can declare a legal charge and (b) LoS rules with regards to BG's not only terrain.

Musings from our first games,
S.

Stefan,

The rules are in the book, they're just a bit scattered about. Apologies I don't have rules with me to tell you which pages they're on but:

- in the shooting section it tells you how to check if a base is blocked for shooting purposes (straight lines from each front corner to any part of the target base; can't go through a friendly battlegroup)

- in the impact phase it tells you which battle groups can declare charges: essentially you can drop back a file to avoid friends but can't interpenetrate.

- also in the impact phase it tells you when shock troops must test to avoid bursting through friends and charging the enemy (note you can't declare this charge, the only way to do it is to fail the test).

So the visibility rules are there, they are just tucked into other sections

[stefanjhill]

Stefan,

The rules are in the book, they're just a bit scattered about. Apologies I don't have rules with me to tell you which pages they're on but:

- in the shooting section it tells you how to check if a base is blocked for shooting purposes (straight lines from each front corner to any part of the target base; can't go through a friendly battlegroup)

- in the impact phase it tells you which battle groups can declare charges: essentially you can drop back a file to avoid friends but can't interpenetrate.

- also in the impact phase it tells you when shock troops must test to avoid bursting through friends and charging the enemy (note you can't declare this charge, the only way to do it is to fail the test).

So the visibility rules are there, they are just tucked into other sections

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the reply. I think you are right, FoG 2.0 needs the rules re-organised as they are spread far and wide in FoG 1.0. With three people all trying to fathom the rules 'in game' we all pull out differing page numbers and take the rules found within in isolation. After reading the book cover to cover for the fourth time the rules are at least coalescing in my mind. I'm sure if instructed by someone who is already aware of the rules would be an easier route than our 'self-taught' approach.

Still, having fun and a little frustration isn't putting us off, thanks to the FoG community for answering what I'm sure are obvious questions with obvious answers.

Thanks,
Stefan.

[ShrubMiK]

The trouble is possibly that if you move all those particular rules together, on the grounds that they are all concerned with "visibility", tomorrow somebody will come along and complain that the rules to do with charging are split up, and the rule book needs reorganising.

Perhaps there is scope for cross-referencing, or (more wastefully) repeating what is essentially the same rule in several sections.

[gozerius]

What we need is a concordance to the rules. A handy guide that lists each page a particular term is mentioned, with accompanying keywords. Also contains a complete glossary for each word in the rules so there is no arguing over what the definition of "is" is.