side edge to side edge contact

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:10 pm

Hi all,

AAAA
AAAA
BBBBXXXX
BBBBXXXX

A and X facing down page. B facing up page. X fight B in overlap .

Can X turn 90° to engaged B to the flank during the maneouvre phase like in P 76 and 77.

THanks

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:32 pm

zeitoun wrote:Hi all,

AAAA
AAAA
BBBBXXXX
BBBBXXXX

A and X facing down page. B facing up page. X fight B in overlap .

Can X turn 90° to engaged B to the flank during the maneouvre phase like in P 76 and 77.

THanks

No.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:35 pm

thanks dave , can you explain why please... ?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:49 pm

zeitoun wrote:thanks dave , can you explain why please... ?

Because you are fighting as an overlap.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:54 pm

thanks nik , that what I think too.

AAAA
AAAA
BBBBBBXXXX
BBBBBBXXXX

like this you can turn. Provide you are not in a restricted area of course.

olivier · Post by **olivier** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:08 pm

P 77 it's said ".. a BG that is in side edge to side edge contact with an ennemy BG can turn 90° pto face it provided that it is not in the restricted area of another enemy BG..."
As I read the text before you have 4 different cases
case 1 the BG X move away no fighting
case 2 the BG X don't move and is not eligible to overlaps and no fighting occur
case 3 the BG X don't move and is eligible to overlaps and a fight
case 4 the BG X can test a CMT to turn 90
for me the if not in front refer to "... BG side edge to side edge contact are not committed to close combat, and are free to move avay" and not to the next phrase.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:44 pm

zeitoun wrote:thanks nik , that what I think too.

AAAA
AAAA
BBBBBBXXXX
BBBBBBXXXX

like this you can turn. Provide you are not in a restricted area of course.

Correct

As you are not eligible to fight as an overlap, the "If not ..." last line on page 76 applies and you can turn 90 degrees to engage in combat (taking a CMT if necessary).

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:44 pm

Hi Nick,
Seems to be more clear, nevertheless, do you have an explaination about the p78 description about your enemy evade option, when you turn from a side edge to side edge only position ?
It's written a non shock cav, camel, Lch entirely 1 base deep or Skirm may evade if they are not already in close combat other than as an overlap only....
So, if they are in close combat other than as an overlap only....you're in overlap as aren't you ? And in that case how do you turn...Suppose I missed something...

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:36 pm

bawawa wrote:Hi Nick,
Seems to be more clear, nevertheless, do you have an explaination about the p78 description about your enemy evade option, when you turn from a side edge to side edge only position ?
It's written a non shock cav, camel, Lch entirely 1 base deep or Skirm may evade if they are not already in close combat other than as an overlap only....
So, if they are in close combat other than as an overlap only....you're in overlap as aren't you ?

Why must you be in overlap if the BG you are in side edge contact with is in close combat (other than as an overlap)?

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:52 pm

The definition of the overlap p75 says : Full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front contact with friends.

In the p78 description about the option of evading in case of turning side edge to side edge BG, the rule talks about a enemy with who you're in contact side edge to side edge and who is not in close combat other than as an overlap....so I understand not in front edge combat (cause exept overlap, when you're in combat in that phase I think it means you have a front contact with enemy) ...
So to be able to evade the BG must not be fighting an enemy other than as an overlap, if BG fights other than as an overlap it can't evade, ok, but if that BG enemy has enemy on his front, so the other enemy BG (the turning one) on the side is ....in overlap...cf definition p75.
Maybe we could have a case where we may have, in manoeuver phase, a fighting BG, not as an overlap, and not on his front, but really I can't see...but I'm not sure !
Friendly

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:03 pm

no overlap but ennemy to his front :

is not in overlap position with

who fight

to his front....

empty space

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:27 pm

Following P75 definition, that's purely a case of overlap ! , side edge to side edge contact with an enemy fighting on his front!

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:13 pm

bawawa wrote:Following P75 definition, that's purely a case of overlap ! , side edge to side edge contact with an enemy fighting on his front!

The enemy he is in contact with isn't fighting to his front.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:37 am

bawawa wrote:Following P75 definition, that's purely a case of overlap ! , side edge to side edge contact with an enemy fighting on his front!

The enemy base isn't fighting to its front - you keep missing the base bit out and are thinking in terms of the BG which is incorrect.

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:56 am

OK, in the Zeitoun drawing, enemy isn't fighting on his front (ref dave)....I agree, so the side edge to side edge is not in overlap, ok (cause not corresponding to p75 def)...
So... is some one can explain in wich case you're in side edge to side edge contact, not in overlap, the enemy in contact is fighting other as an overlap (no front edge contact, ref p75)...so the enemy can't evade from you as you turn 90° toward him...that's the case described p78 from line 7...and , maybe I'm stupid but I really don't understand !
Where the enemy is fighting from, to be prevented to evade, and not on his front cause you're not in overlap ?
That time is not clear at all !
Friendly
Eric

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:34 am

I think you may be confusing the 2 points Eric.

It is possible for 2 BGs to be in side edge to side edge contact with each other and not in overlap with anyone else.

Page 76, 77 and 78 tells us how these 2 BGs can engage in melee - and Page 78 describes how 1 BG would be allowed to evade.

The sentence on P76 - 'If they do not move away, no combat occurs unless they are eligible to fight as an overlap.' Means exactly that - if they are providing an overlap they will fight against the base or bases they are overlapping.

So the example ypu have asked for is:

Where

is in side edge to side edge contact with

.

is fighting

but only as an overlap.

is fighting

So

can evade if it is non-shock cavalry, camelry etc and

turns 90 degrees to contact it.

Hope this helps?

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:00 am

Hope this helps?
Really...no...sorry...
P78 clearly suggests that you

may be in side edge to side edge contact with and turn 90° toward an enemy

who is fighting other than as an overlap !)(so not your drawing)
Cause that the suggested case 1 deep Lch, Cam, Non Sk Cav can't evade from your threat...
So I still don't understand in wich case it's possible, the drawing with smileys shows an enemy

fighting in overlap only ! so if you turn BG can evade assuming it's one of thes Lch, Cam, Non SK Cav on 1 base deep formation...
From p78 I deduct :

1/

can turn 90° toward

and

can evade (assume it's a type of troop ok for that) cause

is just fighting as an overlap...)

2/

can turn 90°toward

and

can't evade cause it's fighting other than as an overlap

Where am I wrong ?
Friendly

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:21 am

Hope this helps?
Really...no...sorry...

Okay....but I think we're getting closer.

Your diagrams are fine too.

Where am I wrong ?

I don't think you are. The paragraph on P78 means that non-shock cav etc can evade if they are only in overlap - but they can't evade if they are fighting to their front.

Or maybe I just didn't understand the question properly?

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:37 am

Ok, Pete, so there is hope for me !!!!
The core of the problem is that (if I understand well), in my second drawing,

is fighting as an overlap, cause his enemy

is in contact with an enemy to his front (cf definition of overlap p75)...and some says that if you're side edge to side edge contact with an enemy fighting other than as an overlap only...you're yourself in overlap so you can't turn toward your enemy....this is that part I don't understand cause in my opinion (but poor frog-snail-eater with poor english !!!) I can find the point of the rule preventing such a turn !
Nevertheless it's really detail of a wonderfull game...same for Renaissance one...starting to build Sweden army !!!!
Thanks to all of you trying to save my poor mind !!!
Friendly
Eric

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:26 pm

Ok Eric - thanks for that.

Unfortunately I missed the significance of your 2nd picture.

Because

is eligible to fight

as an overlap, I believe that

is prevented from turning 90 degrees - this is the final paragraph on page 76.

This is the point that both Nik & Dave have confirmed and I agree with them. The 'If not, they can engage in melee as follows:' relates to 'unless they are eligible to fight as an overlap'.

So because

is eligible to fight as an overlap I don't believe it can turn 90 degrees.

I am sorry if I have added to the confusion.

And best of luck with your Swedes!

side edge to side edge contact

side edge to side edge contact

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