Later Seleucids vs Dominate Romans

[dreiling]

Setup
Jeff & Andy graciously invited me over for a battle.
I brought my Later Seleucids (2nd time I played them).
Jeff had setup his Dominate Romans for Andy to run, while Jeff reff'd.

Seleucid Setup:

Near to Far: 3 BG Cataphract, 4 BG Pike 1BG Offensive Spear, 1 BG (Thracians)Heavy Weapon, 2 BG LH, in front 2 BG LF bow, 1 BG LF sling

Dominate Roman Setup:

Near to Far: 2 BG LH, 1 BG Cavalry, 1 BG Cataphract 4 BG HF Swordmen, 3 BG MF, 1 BG LF, 2 BG Cavalry

View of the Battle from Seleucid Center:


I will post the battle in Left, Center, and Right groupings.

[dreiling]

Right Flank Battle Report:
Seleucid Plan: Push 'em back, Push 'em back, Way back
Roman Plan: Shoot, Flee, Shoot, Flee, etc.
Seleucid: 3 BG of Cataphracts facing Roman: 2 BG LH & 1 BG shooty Cav, + later 1 BG Cataphracts


After 1st Moves (both sides):

Seleucid Cataphracts got past the bad terrain, the Roman Cav & LH block the way

After Seleucid 2nd Move:

Seleucid Cataphract BG on the outside expands out and then wheels to face 2 BG LH

After Roman 2nd Move:

Javelin LH now in position to shoot, as well as Shooty Cav & LH -> result middle Cataphract unit disrupted!

After 3rd Moves (both sides):

Move General to Middle Seleucid Cataphract BG to bolster - disrupted by shooty cav.
Seleucids pushed the Romans back by charing them, the LH & single rank Cav flee (note the Roman Cataphract coming!)
Next Roman move it tries to charge the disrupted middle Cataphract unit, the steady Cataphract unit intercepts the charge.
Next Seleucid move - middle unit rallies, and charges the Cav, and the other Cataphract chrages the LH.

After 4th Moves (both sides):

Seleucids charge again pushing the LH & Cav closer to the table edge.
(note that middle Cataphract BG has recovered & Roman Cataphract has lost one morale level)

After next Roman move:

LH & Cav have turned around & about to shoot. Roman Cataphract has bolstered morale and inflicted a critical causality on the engage Seleucid Cataphract
(Lesson: Should the Troop Commander joined the battle in front rank and affected the result? Maybe yes).

After last moves – both sides:

The previously engaged Seleucid Cataphract auto-broken and removed.
The Cataphract BG is pushing the LH to the table edge, and other LH and Cav have turned back towards camp (for now).
The Roman Cataphract has Steady Pike BG 1 MU away and a Disrupted Cataphract BG 4 UM behind it, as well as Steady LF archers in front.

(Lesson: Cataphracts cost a lot relative to Cavalry (or Camelry?) and don't chase (or catch) LH very effectively, on the other hand their armor really helps)

[vitriol]

a perfect live report! wait for the right and the center.
luca

[azrael86]

Easy in hindsight but just what did you expect to need 3 units of cataphracts (1/4 of the army) to fight?

Elephants are an alternative, and cheaper (50 cf 64). They also discourage enemy cataphracts from getting close., although they are fragile.

a unit of LH works, too - the enemy have to evade because of the cats, and the LH may catch them.

[stenic]

Also, consider the Companions rather than 1 BG of Superior Cats for the same cost. You likely lose a POA vs getting elites who move faster and are more manoueverable.

[dreiling]

Easy in hindsight but just what did you expect to need 3 units of cataphracts (1/4 of the army) to fight?

Elephants are an alternative, and cheaper (50 cf 64). They also discourage enemy cataphracts from getting close., although they are fragile.

a unit of LH works, too - the enemy have to evade because of the cats, and the LH may catch them.

The Roman player could have concentrated his Cavalry to one side, and as it was one unit did fight another BG of Cataphracts.
Note that all the Seleucid BG Cataphracts were Average, not Superior, although the Roman Cataphract was Superior with the Commander fighting in front. - Perhaps that was the key, that if their Commander is fighting in front, mine should as well.

[dreiling]

Also, consider the Companions rather than 1 BG of Superior Cats for the same cost. You likely lose a POA vs getting elites who move faster and are more manoueverable.

Agreed. They are faster and a bit more maneuverable. Also considering the Galatian Cavalry, as maybe even the Camels - off on the far side.

[azrael86]

The Roman player could have concentrated his Cavalry to one side, and as it was one unit did fight another BG of Cataphracts.
Note that all the Seleucid BG Cataphracts were Average, not Superior, although the Roman Cataphract was Superior with the Commander fighting in front. - Perhaps that was the key, that if their Commander is fighting in front, mine should as well.

Your Roman did have a lot of cav (and successor cav, even seleucid, is much better then romans). If he is superior and you are average you should expect to lose - add your general for equalty BEFORE he commits his). If you expect to fight sups with averages then consider having them in 6's.

Might have been worth putting cats more central so they can't be skirmished. They struggle against good legions, but so do most things. Bear in mind that one great thing about the seleucid is that it can have a huge variety of troops. Good examples of lists at www.madaxeman.com

[dreiling]

Left Flank Battle Report:
Seleucid Plan: Hold them off and give ground as needed, protect the flank!
Roman Plan: Push the LH back and open the Seleucid flank and rear of all that HF in the center!
(Obstacles: terrain Uneven Fields & Plantation
Seleucid: 2 BG of LH & 1 BG of Thracians with Heavy Weapon facing
Roman 2 BG Cav, 3 BG MF, and 1 BG LF

After 1st Moves (both sides):

Seleucid LH got past the bad terrain (2 moves) and are trying to slow the Roman advance.
Romans have advanced and sent some LF out to meet the LH

After 2nd Seleucid Move:

Tarantine LH charged the LF in the open, LF tried to flee, but rolled a 1 or 2 (short), therefore not getting through the MF to their rear. Therefore the LF are disrupted and the LH caught them in the rear. A short, ugly impact followed resulting in their breaking → now seen routing away. Scythian LH moved to shoot arrows in the Cavalry – no effect.

After 2nd Roman Move:

Roman cavalry advanced to be in front of but didn't charge the Scythian LH, Roman MF charge Tarantine LH which flee.

After 3rd Moves (both sides):

The Scythian LH turn 180, back up 3 MU, and turn around, and shoot disrupting the Roman Cavalry. The Tarantine LH turn 180, and get in Javelin range for the Roman MF, and throw their javelins – causing no morale checks. The Thracians near the edge of the Plantation to see what’s happening on in the battle.
The Roman MF charge the LH again, causing them to flee. Roman Cavalry stays where it is waiting to recover its’ morale level.

After 4th Moves (both sides):

Thracians wheel a bit to offer more of a front to the Roman MF. Scythian & Tarantine LH strategically re-arrange themselves to shoot & throw at the on-coming Roman MF. No effect.
Roman MF advance until one unit is in front of the Thracians. Roman Cavalry moves up having recovered its’ morale level. Note the Roman MF column trying to flank the center.

After 5th Moves (both sides):

The Scythian LH shoot again, disrupting the Roman MF in front. The Tarantine LH throw javelins and have no effect. Thracians just stand their ground.
The Roman MF charges the Thracians, and while the impact doesn’t get them, the melee morale roll takes them down to fragmented – luckily nobody died. The disrupted Roman MF charge the Scythian LH who flee. The Roman Cavalry form a column to exploit the hole in the Seleucid line between the Thracians in the Plantation and the Offensive Spearmen, along with the Roman MF in column.

After 6th Moves (both sides):

The Scythian & Tarantine LH now concentrate fire on the disrupted Roman MF in front of them, getting 4 hits on 4 dice, and the Roman MF failing their morale test and breaking. The Thracians cause the Roman MF they are engaged with to become disrupted (Rolling incredibly well – 3 hits on 3 dice), while recovering their morale level back to disrupted.
Next turn both Thracians and engage Romans MF recover morale level back to Steady. Roman moves Cavalry column toward the center, with a BG of Slinger and another BG of LF bow in their way. The other Roman cavalry is disrupted by the Scythian & Tarantine LH shooting & throwing.

[dreiling]

Center Battle Report:
Seleucid Plan: March forward, pray that the flanks are protected and make anything in front of us pin-cushions.
Roman Plan: Hold back, engage them if necessary – otherwise hope the Seleucid flanks crumble.
Seleucid Troops: 1 BG Offensive Spearmen, 4 BG Average Pikemen, 1 BG LF sling, 2 BG LH bow.
Roman Troops: 4 BG HF Swordsmen

After Set-up in the Center:

(See the original set-up post for the description)

After Seleucid 1st Move in Center:

Seleucid LF double moved to center, the pike & spear following up.

After two more moves:

Roman HF on the flank moving up while Roman HF in the center hanging back
Seleucid LF finally in position. 1st attempt on Roman HF – no affect.

After 4th move (both sides):

Seleucid LF Slingers & Offensive Spearmen (HF) on the left have wheeled to block attacks on the pike flank from Roman HF on the flank. LF Bow have disrupted a Roman HF unit. Pikemen are right on LF bowmen’s heels.
Roman HF on flank has wheeled to face the Offensive Spearmen.

After 5th move (both sides – regrets on the fuzzy picture):

Seleucid LF bowmen retreated through HF pikemen. Slingers on flank try but fail to disrupt flanking Roman HF. Roman HF in center – one unit holds, the other charges to the pikemen on its’ own. (missing suitable quote).

After 6th move (both sides):

Slingers have retreated from flanking Roman HF through the Offensive spearmen and are trying to block the path of the left flank Roman Cavalry unit. One LF bow unit is trying to support the slinger LF, and the other LF bow unit is preparing for the Roman Cataphract.
Roman HF that had engaged the 2 units of Seleucid pike after 1 impact & 2 melees broke. The other Roman HF unit is now engaged with 2 more units of Seleucid pike and is already disrupted.

In the end it was a few critical die rolls that seemed to make the difference.

[Andy1972]

Excellent report! Curses on my HF going impetious on its own! Next time we meet, i will be playing my Medieval Danish!