Too much dice-roll not enough reality, a fatal flaw ??

mhiggins11 · Post by **mhiggins11** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:58 am

This otherwise outstanding game suffers from an almost fatal flaw.

There is just too much dice-roll in the result. The game does not account for reality in the field of combat arms. Not even close.

Example 1 – Brocade Village.

Sent a Panther after a Sherman, the Sherman fired from maximum distance front on to the Panther and killed it. Well ok maybe.

But I send a second Panther after the Sherman and an M5 firing from 6 squares away killed it on the first round. Just not real likely.

But it’s not over, in a fit of pure rage, I sent the Tiger out to a third Sherman (not veteran or elite) – point-blank, fired twice and the Sherman was not even suppressed.

Example 2 – Desert Encounter

My mobile 2pdr hit an elite Panzer IV front on from the max range and killed it on the first round. Really, not going to happen.

Example 3 - <some>

I put a Stug G behind a Sherman Firefly at 1 hex and fired twice. Again, not even a Suppression. The Sherman Firefly has the armor of a mouse for god's sake.

If the dice are going to rule the game, then why not just give us a generic tank on each side ?

I love the concept, the graphics, the PBEM -- so please get someone who has actually served in the armed forces to help create game-play that is not completely detached from reality. I have seen your tables and charts, you have the right data. Just reduce the effects of random dice rolls by a factory of oh say 95%. Please !!

Capt. M.W. Higgins
USN, ret.

MesaDon · Post by **MesaDon** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:26 am

after dozens of games I have never taken out a Panther with a front on attack. I have had very few incidents of taking out a PZ IV with a 2 pdr. As in real life you never always hit your target and depending on your own movement prior to shooting your accuracy can be adversely affected. Not to say that weird results do not happen but I have hoticed that there is a great deal of difference between firepower for each type of gun and the ability to destroy the various tanks. Sure it isn't always perfect but it is better then anything I have seen in a light war game before. While it would be easy to critize some of the things that occur, I remember it is only a game and prone to imperfections the same as humans and heck humans (I think) created it. Well I gotta go put my soapbox away.

mhiggins11 · Post by **mhiggins11** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:34 am

Sorry, I should have been clearer in my topic post - those examples were just 3 of over 25 I have recorded that make so sense. ok - one or 2 lucky hits is acceptable, but I just lost another Tiger in Along the Road to virgin Sherman max range, front on, first shot, then that very same Sherman killed a Stug with it's second reaction shot. IT JUST CAN'T HAPPEN. This is not a science fiction game.

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:35 am

One thing i did notice that is strange is that it seems when you are hot you are hot.. making 2% frontal armor kills, shooting panthers with shermans and killing them 1 or 2 hits. Then there are sometimes when you are so cold, you could miss a 60% and then 70% shot.. and miss about 10 15-30% shots in a row without suppressing.. Yes that is unrealistic, but thats just the way its going to have to be, if we trust that the math is working correctly then you can say that you have been extremely unlucky when stuff like that happens. People talk about how strong German armor is now, but if they make it too realistic shermans should go down in pretty much 1 hit from a panther or tiger no exceptions. That wouldn't make for much of a game

edit: btw I have had a my KingTiger killed in 1 hit in a MP game, but it hasn't happened again ever since

gib10 · Post by **gib10** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:49 am

Ya its a fine balance between realism and a fun game. I've heard on the history channel that sometimes it was 4-1 tiger-sherman kills but the 4th surviving sherman got around and shot the tiger in the rear. I guess if you restructure the kill% then you'd have to increase allied armor alot as per the above? Just a thought.

Oh and holy snit you 2! 200 games for Captain Higgins and 500+games for Logan5!! Shesh, you eat or sleep since the games been out man!?! LOL How many are MP?

I faced both of you and your very skilled opponents(tips hat).

mhiggins11 · Post by **mhiggins11** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:03 am

Thanks for the nod, I enjoy our games alot. Most of my so called 200 games are single player, only about 20 MP. But now i just do MP, as with all AI's it has weaknesses.

I don't mind the Tiger dying from a rear shot, the armor was weak near the drive motor housing, but face-on the Tiger was very hard to penetrate. Suppress yes, but out-right kill - no.

I think the tables used (the CSV in the data folder) look good, at least relative to each other, which is why i can't buy a tiny M5 nailing a Tiger in the front.

I hope that the thread will generate some consideration of issue, and maybe someone smarter than me will have a solution.

p.s. you are kicking my butt as we speak !!!

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:08 am

gib10 : hehe.. i been playing a lot but what happens is everything you load the game it counts as a new game played, I use the traytool so i load up the game every time my turn comes in.. that's why i have so many games played, plus i have a lot of time on my hands

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:59 am

It's not possible to make these kills so if you cna make them happen its a bug. Please send us the saved games so we can see the replays. I imagine something else must have been going on though. E.g. they were flank shots. If you are 45 degrees or up on a unit it counts as a flank shot.

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:58 am

Let´s not forget that first, this a GAME, so luck is by definition, part of it, and if you want to make it playable you need to balance it, so that means making some concesions to "unreality".

Then, in this particular case, we are right in front of not a hardcore game (at least in the surface), but one that has been simplified to make it more accesible and fun to play for a broader audience. So don´t expect for everything to beahave as in reality it should have (i think in that case, german armor would be a pain to beat)

That said, I still have the correct feeling (and much more than that actually) when dealing with the combined arms tactics I need to use, from infnatry to armor going through artillery, and that even with the ammount of luck involved, everything feels in place, are in more importantly, is a whole lot of FUN.

I can see the OP points though, and maybe as Ian posted could be some bug involved. But if you approach the game with the wrong attitude, you will surely miss all the payback in pure fun it surely has.

PirateJock_Wargamer · Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:05 pm

Is the random element in the checking for a kill only generated in the Fire and FireLogic scripts, i.e. the BSF files in the ..\Data\scripts files?

If so random generation is in the 0 - 100 range ... allowing a BIG scope for hitting (and missing). However there are also times where head on attacks will have no chance of killing - as got 0% chance of penetration.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:20 pm

The % you see is the exact % chance of a hit/kill. People seem to expect low chance to never happen, at least to them. I have no idea how we deal with this perception

If it says 0% you cannot hurt it. I've never seen these not working. I've been unlucky and I've been lucky, but thats part of the game!

mhiggins11 · Post by **mhiggins11** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:34 pm

ok, so now i have been called a fool and a liar. well, i have to admit i've been called worse. but usually by men of honor, not boys who have never seen a real battle worse yet fought in it.

Dear Slitherine -

please remove my forum account, with immediate effect
please remove my BA registration, with immediate effect
please remove my store account, with immediate effect

please advise those in PBEM games with me that i have resigned and no longer play.

a great air boss (CAG) i served under once told me that "god must truly love fools.... he created so many of them".

fair winds and following seas.....

Capt. M. W. Higgins
USN, ret.

Acererak · Post by **Acererak** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:57 pm

mhiggins11 wrote:ok, so now i have been called a fool and a liar. well, i have to admit i've been called worse. but usually by men of honor, not boys who have never seen a real battle worse yet fought in it.

Well, not usually in the mood for flame wars in game forums, and definitely not in my mind to start one here. I would just like to apologize in case my comment is one of those that fell like an insult to you, but quite the contrary. My motivation was just to follow a debate that you started (as i believe are most of the replies you got, by the way)

In my modest opinion, i cannot deduce any of those you mention from any response i read in the thread at all.

I wish i was still a boy though. Served in the Army for one year, but luckily didn´t have the chance to see and even less, fight, any real war at all.

Good luck in your travels, Captain.

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:26 pm

iainmcneil wrote:The % you see is the exact % chance of a hit/kill. People seem to expect low chance to never happen, at least to them. I have no idea how we deal with this perception

If it says 0% you cannot hurt it. I've never seen these not working. I've been unlucky and I've been lucky, but thats part of the game!

This perception is what makes the casinos rich and it will never go away, people pull patterns out of short term outcomes but they don't realize one roll does nothing to impact the other rolls percentage no matter how many hits/misses you have in a row.

acarhj · Post by **acarhj** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:56 pm

well I am sorry this thread ended so badly for the OP but that's life I guess.

I will add my 2 cents. I've played many games...perhaps 30-50 and occasionally a tank will turn the corner, fire a shot before my waiting tank facing in the correct direction can get a shot off. One time, a Panther, turned the corner. Killed 1 tank and then killed the tank behind it without a shot from me! I can't complain too badly because I won the scenario.

Luck is a part of it all in game just as it is in real life. As my German teacher used to say, "Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you!"

I wonder if the OP had his game fully patched? I am running 1.39 and have no major complaints.

John

Post by **pipfromslitherine** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:40 am

mhiggins11 wrote:ok, so now i have been called a fool and a liar. well, i have to admit i've been called worse. but usually by men of honor, not boys who have never seen a real battle worse yet fought in it.

Dear Slitherine -

please remove my forum account, with immediate effect
please remove my BA registration, with immediate effect
please remove my store account, with immediate effect

please advise those in PBEM games with me that i have resigned and no longer play.

a great air boss (CAG) i served under once told me that "god must truly love fools.... he created so many of them".

fair winds and following seas.....

Capt. M. W. Higgins
USN, ret.

I'm absolutely certain that nobody meant to imply any of those things! In the latest update we fixed some oddness with german heavy armour, as there were cases of the kind you describe due to bugged data, but you should never see it in the current version. If you do see them, then a save immediately after the fact might be of some use, as we can try and repeat the circumstances.

Cheers

Pip

Ocean1 · Post by **Ocean1** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:06 am

Wow.... Not sure what set him off, but he obviously had some preconceived notions about what people were saying. Nothing I read should have brought that response. Unfortunately, I was playing him on one of the games he was talking about. There were some odd kills/no kills during the game. Some of what he talked about seemed to happen, where a long range shot from a weak gun killed a heavy unit and a heavy unit couldn't kill a light one at short range. I don't remember the details and didn't commit them to memory. I noted in the comments to him, at the time, that there seemed to be a lot of "dice roll" type activity (random factors). However, I understand it's JUST A GAME! and I would venture to say it's not as "hard core" as many I've played... That's part of the attraction of this game to me, even along with the chess move type of issues. I'm glad work is still being done, as should be done for any game of this type to continually improve the experience. At least that's the way a good company should take care of business and I believe that's being done with this game.

I'd venture to say that most of those on this forum are over 30

I know I am. And "never seen battle"? ..... I won't go there... (past U.S. Army myself)

Oh, forgot to add - he up and just quit in the middle of the game because he didn't like the way things were playing out.. oh well..

Having fun doing multiple PBEM games

even if I get a little reckless with my units

Amaz_Ed · Post by **Amaz_Ed** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:26 am

Oh, forgot to add - he up and just quit in the middle of the game because he didn't like the way things were playing out.. oh well..

Did the same to me. One of my Shermans took out his Panther from the front at a range of 5 or 6 squares, but prior to this he had claimed lots of hits against British tanks that had not resulted in kills. I wasn't really counting. I think it was probably before the last patch.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:45 am

When you killed the Panther frontally what type of tank were you using? A normal Sherman cannot kill frontally at 5-6 tiles. If it had an angle its possible but definitely not frontally. As I said in my post, if it did happen its a bug.

There was at no stage any accusation of lying or being a fool by anyone and I struggle to see how it could have been interpreted that way. The problem with e-mail/forums is that people often misinterpet what others have said as ~90% of commnuication is not the words, but the body language and tone of voice. I fear this is what has happened, which is very sad as we're always interested to get feedback on how to improve the game.

Amaz_Ed · Post by **Amaz_Ed** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:57 am

Just checked and it was opportunity fire from a Firefly at 5 squares range. The turn before he commented that he had scored 8 hits on a Cromwell including 4 hit's from Stug G's. Overall he claimed (I have no way of confirming) 38 hits on British tanks for no kills. I did comment that I was surprised that the Cromwell had survived.