Situation 1: Unit A is currently in Melee with B, Unit C Starts to the Rear of unit A about 3" away. Unit A must Rout. Unit A is in double Rank
We have read that rout are carried out per evade moves pg 108 paragraph 2 states “If any obstruction would prevent completion of a routing bg’s move, adjust per evade moves (see the Impact Phase Section)….
On page 67, paragraph 2 starts the section ‘If an evading bg encounters any obstructions, the following rules apply:…
Continuing on page 67 for evade, right column, 3rd paragraph
…*must halt 1MU away from any enemy battlegroup in its path, with no shifting or contraction being allowed at all, AND IF IT STARTS CLOSER TO THEM THAN 1MU, DOES NOT MOVE AT ALL
The next paragraph mentions an evading unit can be in contact with enemy camp, turn 90 and moves parallel to the edge of the camp. BG are not mentioned for this type of movement….
I believe the units (router and opponents) stay in place and the router loses bases every melee and JAP until it autobreaks.
My friend stated the following: "the kickers here are the vectoring, and the fact that the unit it is engaged with is not 'in its path' and that thus you are running from both the unit charging and the unit you are in melee with....you have to run, and since you can turn 90 you can run OUT of the sides of the sandwhich."
Too me, it makes no sense that a routing unit can slide along the front edge of a unit it is in contact with.
Please advise,
quillup
Rout Direction With Unit to Its Rear
Moderators: philqw78, terrys, hammy, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Moderators, Field of Glory Design
The routhing BG turns, discovers it is unable to make its full rout move, does not move at all, is caught and loses a base but then at the end of the phase the routing BG is removed as it was unable to complete it's rout move.
Page 108, second bullet,: if any obstruction would prevent completion of a routing BG's move...... the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase.
Page 108, second bullet,: if any obstruction would prevent completion of a routing BG's move...... the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase.
Hammy,
Thank you for the quick reply. Please, a clarification.
you indicated
"The routhing BG turns, discovers it is unable to make its full rout move, does not move at all, is caught and loses a base but then at the end of the phase the routing BG is removed as it was unable to complete it's rout move."
win the unit turns, what is blocking it from making its full rout move? the unit it is in contact with?
Quillup
Thank you for the quick reply. Please, a clarification.
you indicated
"The routhing BG turns, discovers it is unable to make its full rout move, does not move at all, is caught and loses a base but then at the end of the phase the routing BG is removed as it was unable to complete it's rout move."
win the unit turns, what is blocking it from making its full rout move? the unit it is in contact with?
Quillup
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philqw78
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They can only move like evaders. There is no swerving. They can drop files or shift a base width, providing no base moves further than a base width sidewaysguthroth wrote:Taking this question one stage further back, when does a routing unit count as being blocked ?
Can the routers swerve at all ? If so how much ?
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
Ahh, I may have missed a trick here
Is the BG is routing as a result of being charged in the rear while engaged to the front?
If that is the case then if the charge is exactly in the rear the now broken BG could turn 90 and rout. It would likely be contacted by the chargers who not being pursuers would not remove a base and by the BG it was initially fighting who would be pursuers and would remove a base.
I had assumed that the second BG was blocking the rout path after the routers broke.
Is the BG is routing as a result of being charged in the rear while engaged to the front?
If that is the case then if the charge is exactly in the rear the now broken BG could turn 90 and rout. It would likely be contacted by the chargers who not being pursuers would not remove a base and by the BG it was initially fighting who would be pursuers and would remove a base.
I had assumed that the second BG was blocking the rout path after the routers broke.
Hammy and all,
You actually answered my second situation, where the unit C is charging the rear of unit A. However, if Unit C declares a Charge, Unit A does not go down in Cohesion until Unit C is in contact with it, by then, there is not enough space between the two opposing units to turn and rout and Unit A will be eliminated at the end of the phase.
the situation in this initial forum was regarding Unit C (hvy Inf) was threatening the rear of Unit A when Unit A broke and had to Rout from Melee with Unit B in its front. Assuming Unit A can turn 90 and be in single Rank (ie LiInf), and there is 75mm from the Back of Unit A to Unit C. Unit A breaks during Melee of Unit B. therefore Unit A must rout away from Unit B. I understand that movement in FoG is usually formal. I see several options, but not sure if any of them are legal
1> Unit A can Turn 90, and SLIDE along the edge of Unit B that it is in contact with, in order to rout from Unit's B and C. But the rule does not say a unit can slide along the edge of an enemy unit, only an enemy camp (evade rules pg 67 as stated in first message)
2> Unit A about faces, moves 1mu from Unit B, then turns 90 to avoid Unit C and continues the rout Move. The sticky point here is that when Unit A turns 90, it base will be within 1" of an enemy blocking unit (evade rules pg 67 as sited in first message)
3> Unit A about faces, moves to within 1mu from Unit C, then turns 90 to avoid Unit C and continues the rout Move. Ignoring the fact that when it turns 90, it is within 1mu of Unit B, since it started in contact with Unit B.
My buddy who is usually the GM will allow the units to SLIDE along the edge of the unit that forced it to break (option 1). This does not make sense to me because it remains in contact with an opposing unit during rout. This does not sound like turning and moving away from the charging unit.
quillup
You actually answered my second situation, where the unit C is charging the rear of unit A. However, if Unit C declares a Charge, Unit A does not go down in Cohesion until Unit C is in contact with it, by then, there is not enough space between the two opposing units to turn and rout and Unit A will be eliminated at the end of the phase.
the situation in this initial forum was regarding Unit C (hvy Inf) was threatening the rear of Unit A when Unit A broke and had to Rout from Melee with Unit B in its front. Assuming Unit A can turn 90 and be in single Rank (ie LiInf), and there is 75mm from the Back of Unit A to Unit C. Unit A breaks during Melee of Unit B. therefore Unit A must rout away from Unit B. I understand that movement in FoG is usually formal. I see several options, but not sure if any of them are legal
1> Unit A can Turn 90, and SLIDE along the edge of Unit B that it is in contact with, in order to rout from Unit's B and C. But the rule does not say a unit can slide along the edge of an enemy unit, only an enemy camp (evade rules pg 67 as stated in first message)
2> Unit A about faces, moves 1mu from Unit B, then turns 90 to avoid Unit C and continues the rout Move. The sticky point here is that when Unit A turns 90, it base will be within 1" of an enemy blocking unit (evade rules pg 67 as sited in first message)
3> Unit A about faces, moves to within 1mu from Unit C, then turns 90 to avoid Unit C and continues the rout Move. Ignoring the fact that when it turns 90, it is within 1mu of Unit B, since it started in contact with Unit B.
My buddy who is usually the GM will allow the units to SLIDE along the edge of the unit that forced it to break (option 1). This does not make sense to me because it remains in contact with an opposing unit during rout. This does not sound like turning and moving away from the charging unit.
quillup
"Turns out that there's a qualifier phrase - "unless [the router/evader's] existing facing is closer to the direction of the charge" (i.e., the router/evader has been charged from its rear aspect).
"So, a unit charged from its rear aspect DOES NOT have the option to first turn 90 (or 180) - i.e., it must try to run AWAY from the charger (which of course makes sense). In the case of the open sandwich with charge from the router's rear, this of course puts the router into the arms of the unit it is meleeing, which freezes the router in place, and the router vaporizes at the end of Impact (per p. 100, bullet #4). "
Comments?
"So, a unit charged from its rear aspect DOES NOT have the option to first turn 90 (or 180) - i.e., it must try to run AWAY from the charger (which of course makes sense). In the case of the open sandwich with charge from the router's rear, this of course puts the router into the arms of the unit it is meleeing, which freezes the router in place, and the router vaporizes at the end of Impact (per p. 100, bullet #4). "
Comments?
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deadtorius
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Is Unit A fragged? Sounds like it will break when contacted in the rear, if it is then it would have to take a cohesion test for being fragged while charged and might break then. I don't think there is any way of keeping unit A alive, it is toast no matter what as its between 2 enemy when it will be broken and will be eliminated.
Deadtorius,
Yes, you are correct. The unit is fragged. My concern is, can it move parallel along the edge of an enemy BG?
On the rules for evade, p. 67, it states that the unit can go parallel on the edge of a base camp. For enemy BG, the preceding paragraph in the rules states that a unit within 1 MU of an enemy unit in its path of route cannot move at all.
In this situation, the unit breaking is in melee with an enemy unit at its front when another enemy unit at its rear declares a charge. The unit is fragged and fails its CMT and therefore must route away from charge. It starts the route within 1 MU of an enemy unit (i.e., the unit it is currently in melee with). That enemy unit is blocking its direct path to the table edge. Therefore, I believe the routing unit stays in place to be eliminated at end of phase.
Comments?
...Quillup
Yes, you are correct. The unit is fragged. My concern is, can it move parallel along the edge of an enemy BG?
On the rules for evade, p. 67, it states that the unit can go parallel on the edge of a base camp. For enemy BG, the preceding paragraph in the rules states that a unit within 1 MU of an enemy unit in its path of route cannot move at all.
In this situation, the unit breaking is in melee with an enemy unit at its front when another enemy unit at its rear declares a charge. The unit is fragged and fails its CMT and therefore must route away from charge. It starts the route within 1 MU of an enemy unit (i.e., the unit it is currently in melee with). That enemy unit is blocking its direct path to the table edge. Therefore, I believe the routing unit stays in place to be eliminated at end of phase.
Comments?
...Quillup
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philqw78
- Chief of Staff - Elite Maus
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There is a school of thought which Mr Ruddock applies, not saying that he is correct at all. But. A BG charged in flank or rear must evade/rout in the direction of the charge. It can also turn 90 or 180 to do so. If it could turn 90 and then immediately wheel to the direction of charge and that charge path also be legal, not shift bases by more than 1 base width, it could turn 90.
So it would immediately turn 90. At the start of i=ts evade/rout wheel 90 and then shift up to 1 base to avoid the enemy to its front. If a shift would cause any base to shift more than 90 it would stay where it is, 1 MU from enemy and then die.
So it would immediately turn 90. At the start of i=ts evade/rout wheel 90 and then shift up to 1 base to avoid the enemy to its front. If a shift would cause any base to shift more than 90 it would stay where it is, 1 MU from enemy and then die.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
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deadtorius
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By the sounds of it it is being charged from its immediate rear which means it would rout into the waiting arms of the enemy it was in melee with. I'm not sure that if your in melee and you break you should be able to turn and run, how will the enemy you were fighting catch up to you? I think if your in a sandwich you are dead thats it. Much easier rule interpretation and then the battlefield gets less cluttered. 
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philqw78
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You can't evade when in melee. So any non-broken BG would stick and get toasted, if fragged break at impact if reduced a cohesion level at impact (then no room to turn normally so dead). If Broken by the CT at charge declaration you rout away from the charge and all the rest meaning you can turn if possible. How would the enemy chase those that broke? Well, if it is possible for the routers to turn they persue as normal. Wheeling and dropping bases/files to follow. The enemy is unlikely to get away, but may if LH routing from HF.
Its what the rules say, not the easiest or most common sense thing (to you) that happens. Personally I can quite happily see a BG charged in the rear rout and try to make their best route out.
Its what the rules say, not the easiest or most common sense thing (to you) that happens. Personally I can quite happily see a BG charged in the rear rout and try to make their best route out.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
putting the arg into argumentative, except for the lists I check where there is no argument!
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deadtorius
- Field Marshal - Me 410A
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deadtorius
- Field Marshal - Me 410A
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- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 am