Showing unit XP on the counters

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:42 pm

One thing I've missed in GS is the ability to show the unit XP directly on the counters instead of having to click on each unit to find the high experienced ones to use against the critical battles for the turn. We've looked at a few alternatives IF we even implement them.

1. Make elite counters for XP level 3 and 4. E. g. the Germans can get SS counter colors, the Russian can get Russian guards colors etc.

2. Show dots on the symbols to indicate the level. These will only be shown at zoom level 3 because ZL2 is too small to distinguish the dot details.

a. Number of dots shows XP level:

b. Color of dots shows XP level:

No dot = 0, Red = 1, Orange = 2, Yellow = 3, White = 4

c. Shape of dots shows XP level:

No dot = 0, circle = 1, cross = 2, triangle = 3, square = 4

Location of dots can be discussed as well.

Is this something you would appreciate to have or will it only clutter the map even more?

massina_nz · Post by **massina_nz** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:00 pm

I like the number of dots, and would find it very useful.

Actually, number of dots to show XP and colour of the dots to represent Tech level would be fantastic.

ferokapo · Post by **ferokapo** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:00 am

massina_nz wrote:I like the number of dots, and would find it very useful.

Actually, number of dots to show XP and colour of the dots to represent Tech level would be fantastic.

This. The visual variable "shape" is not going to be very useful, because it will be difficult to visually discern due to its small size, and difficult to perceive due to the large number of counters.

This would be another step to improve an already great mod!

I would not use special "SS" counters for experienced units, because this historically completely inaccurate. Both Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS had green and veteran units, and the level of experience did nothing to change the type.

BuddyGrant · Post by **BuddyGrant** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:31 pm

massina_nz wrote:I like the number of dots, and would find it very useful.
Actually, number of dots to show XP and colour of the dots to represent Tech level would be fantastic.

I like the dots much more than the shape idea.

Another idea would be to put a number instead of a shape if map clutter was the main concern.

I'd prefer you hold back the elite unit images for a possible future new unit enhancement;).

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:00 pm

BuddyGrant wrote:
massina_nz wrote:I like the number of dots, and would find it very useful.
Actually, number of dots to show XP and colour of the dots to represent Tech level would be fantastic.
I like the dots much more than the shape idea.

Another idea would be to put a number instead of a shape if map clutter was the main concern.

I'd prefer you hold back the elite unit images for a possible future new unit enhancement;).

The units will get number of dots (but horizontal so it can only be used for images and not only NATO counters)
showing the XP level.

I didn't understand what you meant about the last sentence. We will have roundels for SS and Soviet guards units.
NATO symbols will also show the SS and Guards symbols, but for the images it won't be a change. It's possible
to do that, but it's a lot of work and to what purpose. The SS panzer units did e. g. use the same tanks as the Wehrmacht
panzer units (Tigers, Panthers etc.).

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:18 pm

If its about exp, maybe it will be worthy to do something with whole system?
Now its nearly impossible to get 3-4 stars experienced (well, even 2 is hard) units with 10 steps strength, because exp reduce greatly after repair.
Ofcource you can get 4 stars units, but mostly with unhistorical ways, like hunting for 0 effectiveness partisans. Leveling through real fighting is very hard, because unit suffer casualties and when repaired all loss of exp is often greater, then unit gained during fighting.
Maybe it is worthy to add some sort of "elite replacement" (expensive, but saves exp) or separate and small "elite" manpower pool? Or maybe just make some part of experience (for example 1/2 or 1/3 1/4 or whatever of what unit gained) constant and not reducing when repaired.
Current model when heroic units can survive at 1 step and gain 4 stars only to be reduced back to 0 when repaired is not very realistic. Fact that when you expect frontline somewhen in 1943 and will see that good part of units, which actually did lots of fighting starting from very Poland and destroyed dozens of opposing steps, are still green, in not very realistic aswell.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:14 am

We have a change to XP we're testing at the moment. We can set in general.txt the max XP you can lose from each repair. The game will check for the XP loss according to the current formula and set it to the max drop value if it's bigger. Max XP = 100 and we've set the drop to max 25 (1 XP level).

So if you have XP level 3 with e. g. 85 XP you will drop to XP level 2 with 60 XP after repairing. This means you don't lose most of your XP when you repair. If you repair often you will lose a bit more, but if you decide to repair when you're maybe down to 5 steps you will be able to keep your XP pretty well. The value of 25 might be changed to a different number after we've playtested it.

Soviet Corps, Mech and Armor units will now automatically be upgraded to Guards units by reaching XP level 3 (75 XP) and get better stats from that. The downside is that the unit will be more expensive to repair and upgrade.

German Corps, Mech and Armor units can be upgraded to SS for 15 PP's and Garrisons for 10 PP's. These units will get the same increases in values (+1 in the most important ones for the ground units) as the guards units and will also have increased repair and upgrade costs.

It's important to have a more forgiving XP loss when repairing for the Soviets to get Guards units. They have to earn them the hard way by getting XP on their units. Once you gained guards status you won't lose it even if you drop below XP level 3.

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:33 am

Thats really good XP system change, from my point!
Aswell as this new elite units.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:12 am

We're talking about refining the XP drop to be max 5 XP per level of repair. This way you won't get penalized for making small repairs like from 8 to 10 steps. You lose 10 XP and that equals one attack (6 XP) and one defense (4 XP).

ferokapo · Post by **ferokapo** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:10 am

Stauffenberg wrote:(...)

German Corps, Mech and Armor units can be upgraded to SS for 15 PP's and Garrisons for 10 PP's. These units will get the same increases in values (+1 in the most important ones for the ground units) as the guards units and will also have increased repair and upgrade costs.

(...)

Again, I would like to make a point against the unhistorical equivalency of SS=Elite. The Waffen-SS was a different organization from the Wehrmacht, and had very capable elite forces, but also a lot of poorly performing units. Likewise, the Wehrmacht had a considerable number of units that outperformed most of the Waffen-SS units. By implementing as system as you described (SS=elite), you are perpetuating a myth.

I am not against introducing elite units, nor against introducing Waffen-SS units. Just don't make them automatically the same.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:33 pm

I'm fully aware of some SS units not being very powerful. Those were mostly the SS units from Axis minor powers or conquered countries. Most of these didn't perform very well and were mostly used for anti partisan or garrison work. SS Nordland and SS Wiking were an exception and performed really well.

Most GERMAN SS units were maybe not elite because the soldiers were better, but they got preferred treatment from Hitler. That meant the SS units got the latest technology earlier and were more heavily equipped in general. The result was that the SS units had higher firepower than similar Wehrmach units. Many SS units were overstrength, e. g. could SS panzer divisions contain more tanks than a similar Wehrmacht panzer division. All of this resulted in the SS units performing well on the battlefield.

In GS the SS units can be converted even when "green", i. e. no XP. You pay about 15 PP's to upgrade the unit to SS. That simulates you form the unit with heavier equipment than the regular units. The downside is that it's more expensive to repair and upgrade the SS units.

Normal Wehrmacht units become elite by gaining XP just as the SS units can become elite by gaining XP. Many Wehrmacht units like GrossDeutschland (GD) or Lehr performed very well. The units most true to elite status were the Fallschirmjaeger (parachute units), but they didn't have corps size and aren't implemented in GS.

Soviet Guards units can NOT be purchased in GS. Regular units will become Guards after reaching XP level 3. So these units are already veteran units before gaining Guards status.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:36 pm

To avoid exploitation of SS units we've put limitations to the number of SS units that you can have on the map at the same time.

1939 = 0
1940 = 0
1941 = 1
1942 = 3
1943 = 5
1944 = 8
1945 = 10

This means the Poland battle and Case Yellow will NOT be affected by SS presence. Barbarossa can have 1 SS unit, e. g. the LSSAH or Totenkopf SS units that participated in Barbarossa in 1941. It's only from 1942 you will start to see multiple SS units. At that time the German units are a bit vulnerable to Allied airstrikes so the Germans have to think hard if it's worth spending 15 PP's extra to get slightly better firepower.

KingHunter3059 · Post by **KingHunter3059** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:39 pm

This is great - whichever way you do it. BTW, can the xp results be applied to the New Counters done by leridano? (See thread below)

viewtopic.php?t=18334

Jay

MrPlow · Post by **MrPlow** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:33 pm

I love this idea! Great Work! I have an idea similar to the "visible" experience levels on unit icons. Would it also be possible to have the entrenchment level visible aswell? I think this would add to gameplay on both a superficial and tactical level. Superficially, it would be nice to see "defensive lines" on the map guarding rivers, strategic points etc. On a tactical level, it would allow the defensive player to know exactly where to place reverses, ie. where the line is "weakest". It would also allow the attacking player to know where the enemy is weaker and where an attack may result in a successful offensive. I think this would be a lot simpler than having to manually click on each unit to find their entrenchment level, enabling faster gameplay.

The visible representation could maybe be "dotted lines" surrounding the icon on the lowest entrenchment level, and maybe double solid lines at the highest level?

Thanks for all the great work you guys do!

MrPlow

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:39 pm

Minor side note here - stripes (is it correct word for thing on the picture?

) are more logical, then dots.