Charge Mechanism to deal with light troops

Jilu · Post by **Jilu** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:41 am

They would do it like the Spartans did against the Athenian lights who in the end defeated the Spartans without any Athenian Hopilites, just by waring them down with javilins and arrows. If you recieve casulties and can't give any back you will try and close with the lights to stop the shooting thats what they did the lights ran away came back fired again and on it went till the spartans were worn down. Thats what lights do and FOG seems to work well using them.

the circumstances were totaly different than in an open battle.

For the rest then i wonder if LF was so effective why the 1/2 dice for shooting? And should it not be the role of the now almost useless MF bow or crossbows to force reaction?

I understand that eager undisciplined shock troops would be tempted to charge the LF, but regular disciplined i am sure would not.

LF should be a nuisance not a tool to open up a battle line by giving no other choice than charging the LF to make them go away.

Way i would see it:

LF in front of any troops but LF or LH retreat to their rear or away from the ennemy when the ennemy advances but the minimum distance between the two would be 1 MU.
The ennemy units should first do first pass a CMT not to charge if undrilled or skock.

ATXPaul · Post by **ATXPaul** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:54 am

They would do it like the Spartans did against the Athenian lights who in the end defeated the Spartans without any Athenian Hopilites, just by waring them down with javilins and arrows. If you recieve casulties and can't give any back you will try and close with the lights to stop the shooting thats what they did the lights ran away came back fired again and on it went till the spartans were worn down. Thats what lights do and FOG seems to work well using them.

I always hear about this battle every time skirmishers come up. Aside from a single example, what would be called an "outlier" in satistics, when have skirmishers really messed up an opposing foot battleline by themselves? More examples than a single datapoint, please.

Additionally, the

If you recieve casulties and can't give any back you will try and close with the lights to stop the shooting thats what they did the lights ran away came back fired again and on it went till the [you] were worn down.

The "you" in this sentence is confusing. If I was a disciplined soldier and saw enemy shooting kill maybe 10 people while we marched forwards, I would point, laugh, and tell my men to keep marching because we've got to get to their town someday. I certainly wouldn't be like OMG CHARGE! THEY KILLED BOB. This is all with the caveat that each base is roughly 250 men. The enemy commander should be enticed to make a bad charge. He shouldn't have look on sadly as some unit (especially disciplined Spartans, Romans, and the like) go on a wild goose chase because they decided they were smarter than he was.

Also, based on what I have experienced, a single unit of skirmishers can hold up 300 points (1/2-1/3 of an army) because of the pinning and control rules. I have seen a game where some poor sob's undrilled normal hoplites (thankfully I play Spartans) were basically removed from the game because they were stuck next to a four-base unit of light horse, chasing it benny-hill style around the table. Every time the player went into column or turned, the horse would shoot them with the "only the front three ranks count" rule.

Could four bases (1000 men) of light horse really hold down the attention of 8000 men? (4 battlegroups of 8 bases) Especially without taking a single casualty?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:11 am

ATXPaul wrote: If I was a disciplined soldier and saw enemy shooting kill maybe 10 people while we marched forwards, I would point, laugh,

You would probably be killed by your own men then.

ATXPaul · Post by **ATXPaul** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:15 am

philqw78 wrote:
ATXPaul wrote: If I was a disciplined soldier and saw enemy shooting kill maybe 10 people while we marched forwards, I would point, laugh,
You would probably be killed by your own men then.

If I was commanding a Spartan battlegroup (2000 men, assuming eight bases) then 1900 of them wouldn't notice the 10 dead guys, and there's a good chance I wouldn't either. The Spartans and to some extent the Romans would also have the discipline to not slaughter their commanders at the first sign of a little dark humor about the enemy shooting.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:19 am

ATXPaul wrote:
philqw78 wrote:
ATXPaul wrote: If I was a disciplined soldier and saw enemy shooting kill maybe 10 people while we marched forwards, I would point, laugh,
You would probably be killed by your own men then.
If I was commanding a Spartan battlegroup (2000 men, assuming eight bases) then 1900 of them wouldn't notice the 10 dead guys, and there's a good chance I wouldn't either. The Spartans and to some extent the Romans would also have the discipline to not slaughter their commanders at the first sign of a little dark humor about the enemy shooting.

Well, providing you are hapy to believe this until it comes to the time that you have got to laugh.

ATXPaul · Post by **ATXPaul** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:22 am

philqw78 wrote:
ATXPaul wrote:
philqw78 wrote:You would probably be killed by your own men then.
If I was commanding a Spartan battlegroup (2000 men, assuming eight bases) then 1900 of them wouldn't notice the 10 dead guys, and there's a good chance I wouldn't either. The Spartans and to some extent the Romans would also have the discipline to not slaughter their commanders at the first sign of a little dark humor about the enemy shooting.
Well, providing you are hapy to believe this until it comes to the time that you have got to laugh.

This is getting a little off topic. Let me just say this:

Any negative repercussions to the morale of the battlegroup due to shooting are reflected in the CT you must take if you suffer enough hits. My point was (aside from some exaggeration) that shooting enemies do not immediately instill a burning desire to run at them screaming, regardless of my own safety, orders, or sense.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:37 am

ATXPaul wrote:shooting enemies do not immediately instill a burning desire to run at them screaming, regardless of my own safety, orders, or sense.

No they don't. Its a game mechanism that is perhaps simplified. But, IMO, in most cases valid.

ATXPaul · Post by **ATXPaul** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:39 am

philqw78 wrote:
ATXPaul wrote:shooting enemies do not immediately instill a burning desire to run at them screaming, regardless of my own safety, orders, or sense.
No they don't. Its a game mechanism that is perhaps simplified. But, IMO, in most cases valid.

Then we will agree to disagree, I suppose. I think it's an oversimplification, and you think that it is a bit simplified but not too much. I can understand that position.