Flank charging and conforming process

[graym]

Can someone go through the stages of base movement in this contact.

An 8 base 2 deep spear unit is hit on the flank by a 4 base 2 by 2 cav unit where the left hand cav contacts the front spear only and the right cav hits the rear spear only
[ eg the contact is on an angle and one cav steps forward or the cav wheels in by design exactly on the join]

I'm assuming both spears turn to face each cav for impact.

What happens next and on subsequent turns?

[babyshark]

You are correct about the two spear bases turning.

At the start of the maneuver phase the Cav conform to the spear bases that turned in the impact phase. Then the spear BG can reform to face the Cav (but they do not need to do so). After that, the two BGs can feed bases in to the combat, if eligible and they choose to do so.

The complete turn sequence at the back of the rulebook is the place to go to find out exactly how it works.

Marc

[graym]

Ok . that initial turn is the easy bit. Now, if the other 3 files of the spear are engaged what does the spear formation look like with one file turned and looking like a T ? does it drive back on to the the unit facing the main spear group?
Are the T arms vulnerable to new flank attacks? I'm guessing not but are they susceptible to other troops moving up for mega overlaps?

.

[babyshark]

It all depends.

At the start of the maneuver phase the spears can choose to reform so that they are in a two wide column based on the two bases that turned in the impact phase. Then they can start to feed bases in to the combat to use their greater numbers to advantage. On the other hand, they could choose not to reform. Any potential flank change must be behind the front of all bases in the BG, so an unreformed (as it were) BG is harder to flank charge.

Marc

[graym]

thanks, which leads to my next question. Just say it is a 10 base unit .The second and third files are fighting frontally with the first file splayed side by side with the flank charge. What can the fourth or even fifth files do?
Obviously overlap and fight with the fourth file [ is there a choice? ] . But how does the fifth file get involved?
The first file is turned and backed hard up on to friend and foe. There is no room for a second rank [ obviously wanted for spear].

Can they overlap the single ranked ' T's '

[rogerg]

The contacted bases turn and follow the normal rules for turning. Although two bases are contacted, they will turn one behind the other.

[graym]

I didnt read that response too well and now realize I dont quite understand it.

The 2 flank bases are each contacted by a different base ONLY.
That is 2 impact contacts.

Are you saying they turn in a file , rather than individually face each opponent making a sngle ranked " T " ?

How would that work if you started with 2 impact contacts? Would each attacking unit have some contact?

If that happened how would the turned bases have 2 in contact?

[expendablecinc]

The contacted bases turn and follow the normal rules for turning. Although two bases are contact
ed, they will turn one behind the other.

I agree. I thought I'd already chucked my 2c in (and worth every penny).

It does specifically say that the contacted bases turn by the normal rules for turning. This part is specifcally about impact phase contacts.

Checked the section on turning and there its quite explicit that two bases turning the ones to the rear bome behind.

I can see the point that the impact chargers will then only fight with one base ie contact is lost.

I havent checked to see whether it is explicit that if two bases hit they definately both get to fight regardless. In fact there are plenty of times when they woudlnt:
- maybe another charger also contacted one fo the bases.
- maybe one is fighting to the front already while the other is a legal impact combat.

If I were adjudicating Id probably rule that the 2 spear turn 90 degrees as per the the normal turn rules at the expense of the extra impact combat.

Anthony

[rogerg]

Two bases may make contact, but the fight is one base to one base after the turn. Not unreasonable, the fight is taking place on a one base frontage

[philqw78]

Two bases may make contact, but the fight is one base to one base after the turn. Not unreasonable, the fight is taking place on a one base frontage

Surely not if 2 bases contact 2 different bases. Then each turns individually.

[graym]

Yes, that's my point and unfortunately the diagrams which would have sorted this out on page 167 have complicated it with a rear charge at the same time.

However the flanked bases in these diagrams BOTH fight without turning because there isnt room. But both fight.

The logic of why only one base would fight with more room, not less room, eludes me.



Anthony , on an unrelated social note I will be in Perth October 14- 16 [ without troops ].
Let me know on 0417668146 if you want a game.

[philqw78]

If one base contacted 2 bases on the flank they turn 1 behind the other. If 2 bases contact 2 bases they both turn next to each other.

Consider if a frontal charge hits in this way



Both BG here have 2 bases at impact

If the impact was a true flank charge like this

both would again roll for 2 bases at impact and IMO they would turn individually, moving back to close any gap with the remainder of their BG

[expendablecinc]

If one base contacted 2 bases on the flank they turn 1 behind the other. If 2 bases contact 2 bases they both turn next to each other.

Consider if a frontal charge hits in this way



Both BG here have 2 bases at impact

If the impact was a true flank charge like this

both would again roll for 2 bases at impact and IMO they would turn individually, moving back to close any gap with the remainder of their BG

In this way it would be possible to hit each rank of a 4 deep pike block with (4 cav). and from the above they woudl all turn and be fought as 8 dice and al lturn into a 1 rank 4 wide file Ie a massive T. A bit whiffy IMO.

[philqw78]

In this way it would be possible to hit each rank of a 4 deep pike block with (4 cav). and from the above they woudl all turn and be fought as 8 dice and al lturn into a 1 rank 4 wide file Ie a massive T. A bit whiffy IMO.

How? I think Pythagoras may see that one off. At best as a rear charge you would get rear corner, second to last and possibly front, but I don't think so. As a flank charge 2 bases.

[expendablecinc]

In this way it would be possible to hit each rank of a 4 deep pike block with (4 cav). and from the above they woudl all turn and be fought as 8 dice and al lturn into a 1 rank 4 wide file Ie a massive T. A bit whiffy IMO.

How? I think Pythagoras may see that one off.

I just created a powerpoint thingo but have no idea how to upload or embed it. basically 2 units of xystophoroi both from the rear/flank opportuity come in form opposite angle. with a bit of abuse of the wheel they could angle it just right to split the pike file into a 4 wide crust ready to crack.

One of the fixes in the FogR rules is fixes a pet hate of mine. chargers have to do thier wheel before they move when charging. no swings right at the end to shepherd evaders or perform the kind of impact mm surgery described by the Original poster.

[hazelbark]

One of the fixes in the FogR rules is fixes a pet hate of mine. chargers have to do thier wheel before they move when charging. no swings right at the end to shepherd evaders or perform the kind of impact mm surgery described by the Original poster.

A good fix

[philqw78]

I just created a powerpoint thingo but have no idea how to upload or embed it. basically 2 units of xystophoroi both from the rear/flank opportuity come in form opposite angle. with a bit of abuse of the wheel they could angle it just right to split the pike file into a 4 wide crust ready to crack.

If they are coming in from an opposite angle one must be rear and 1 front. Therefore neither base counting front contact turns at all.

[rogerg]

If one base contacted 2 bases on the flank they turn 1 behind the other. If 2 bases contact 2 bases they both turn next to each other.

This cannot be correct in all situations. The rules state that contacted bases turn using the normal rules for turning. If two base, one behind the other, turn, they can only be more than one base wide if their initial depth was greater than one base wide.
The above is true for elephant and cavalry, but not for foot.

[philqw78]

If one base contacted 2 bases on the flank they turn 1 behind the other. If 2 bases contact 2 bases they both turn next to each other.

This cannot be correct in all situations. The rules state that contacted bases turn using the normal rules for turning. If two base, one behind the other, turn, they can only be more than one base wide if their initial depth was greater than one base wide.
The above is true for elephant and cavalry, but not for foot.

Yes a very devious point. Bases contacted turn immediately. So it would then be an umpire call as to when immediately is, and then what the normal rules for turning are. Otherwise impact dice are lost or gained.

[graym]

I'm not sure if that is a consensus or not.

However using the " turn as usual " theme if you are 3 deep spear hit by 2 bases you would turn 2 in file and the other single rank next to it [ 45m depth turns 2 bases wide ]