Oh brother...

[Redpossum]

You want to see something to make you cringe, check out the trailers for this movie called 300

Yes, that's a rhinoceraus, a "war-rhino", being used by the persians at Thermopylae...

I laughed til I cried, then chuckled off and on for the next couple hours.

Yeah...

[tora_tora_tora]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szMKdzXfc48

humm, quite interesting. the other day, I found this one.

well, as you see, this is animation movie, not acted by human actors.
Though, I guess most of japanese history enthusiasts think this batttle sequence is authentic, historical.

there is no English caption, sorry.

[dithyrambos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szMKdzXfc48

humm, quite interesting. the other day, I found this one.

well, as you see, this is animation movie, not acted by human actors.
Though, I guess most of japanese history enthusiasts think this batttle sequence is authentic, historical.

there is no English caption, sorry.

Very interesting, tora_tora_tora. Which battle is this supposed to be depicting? Are any great Daimyo or Shoguns involved?

[dithyrambos]

You want to see something to make you cringe, check out the trailers for this movie called 300

Yes, that's a rhinoceraus, a "war-rhino", being used by the persians at Thermopylae...

I laughed til I cried, then chuckled off and on for the next couple hours.

Yeah...

Oh my goodness! As I was watching that, I kept asknig myself, "Are they serious?" This movie looks like a total farce! I'll bet that they get nothing right except the names and the location! lol. It sure looks like that's all they got right when I watched the trailer! I'm a huge fan of the Spartans, and one of my favorite movies in the world is "The 300 Spartans", but "300" looks like the most stupid movie in the history of movies! My apologies to the makers of this film, but I'll not waste my money on such a mockery of one of the most valiant men and one of the most valiant stands in history!

[sum1won]

The 300, from what I understand, isn't meant to be a historical movie. If I remember correctly, the trailers contain things which are quite clearly fantasy units.

And I don't mean unusual things, such as rhino cavalry. I mean things with fangs, carrying swords.

[Redpossum]

I saw that same trailer on the TV today, when I was watching the Chargers-Patriots game (sob!). This was the first time I've actually turned on the TV and watched it in, ohhhh, 3 years?

[tora_tora_tora]

[/quote]Very interesting, tora_tora_tora. Which battle is this supposed to be depicting? Are any great Daimyo or Shoguns involved?[/quote]

The story itself is not historical, it is fictional, though battle sequences and costumes seems to be authentic.
So these daimyos and warriors are not real historical ones.

[tora_tora_tora]

scene 1 besiegers already surrounded the castle, set in place, waiting order.

00:04 daimyo appears from his pabilion, step forward, and say

00:07 "Let's see, I'm going to dispatch a proving attack" 「さあて、一当てするか」

daimyo uphold his "command wand or command fan"(軍配、gunn-bai) and point the castle.

Watching daimyo's command, 母衣武者(horo musya) tells musicians to sound attack orders.

00:13　"Attack commands" 「寄せ貝」


At the front line of besiegers, there is a man on the horse. He is 侍大将(samurai-taisyo), battle captain, which mean in this case, front-line commander.

Troops behind him have long spear(長槍, naga yari), so these soldiers are called 長柄足軽(nagae ashigaru), and their company is called 長柄隊(long spears).
They have shiled made of bamboo trees' trunk, which is called 竹束(take taba).
According to the article on the web, these shield is made of clay with pebbles, and shrounded by cloth, then surrounded by bamboo trees, so as to prevent from penetration of musket's balls.

00:17"Forwards" 「前へ」

00:20 besiegers starts to advance.

00:25 besiegers also have siege-towers(井楼車,sei rou　sya), troops are dragging it.

00:28 the catl in perspective of the besigers. All of the hill is turned into castle. And on top of the hill, there are Dungeon(天守, tenn syu), which is barely seen.

00:31 In the castle, defence is already set, and the commander shouts,

"Troops, prepare for battle. Musketeers, do not open fire until discrete orders by commanders" 「皆、備えよ、いいか、鉄砲は組頭の下知があるまで放ってはならんぞ」

The castle's front line commander is on top of the platform, made of woods, and he has 持槍(mochi yari).

00:40 The view from the catles, there is huge moat around the edge of the hill.
Commander wears 当世具足(tousei gusoku http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BD%93% ... 7%E8%B6%B3).

00:43 This scene is also in the castle, there are wooden platforms, on which archers and samurais ready for battle, and underneath wooden platform there are musketeers(鉄砲足軽, teppou ashigaru) in pairs. 鉄砲足軽 is not samurai(侍). For one slit, there are two shooters, which mean successive fire.

00:46 Another view of 鉄砲足軽. As their match cord slowly burns, smokes rise. So they are ready to shoot.

00:47　Besiegers' musketeers in line ready for shoot, at the far end of the shooters' line, there is 組頭(kumi gashira), which means commander of these musketeers.

00:48 "Let loose" 「放て｣

00:49　Besiegers musketeers shoot, and smoke rises from their barrel, seen from the castle.

00:52　Besigers' first volly hit defenders wooden shields, and some of defenders stifle their cries.


00:53 "Don't haste, still too far. just prodding" 「逸るな、まだ遠い、脅しだ」

00:56 begiegers musketeers run toward the castle.

00:59 Besiegers' band ring a bell.

01:00 Besiegers' musketeers utter war cry.

01:04 Castle defenders' musketeers' chief yells,

"Ready" 「構えぇっ」

01:05 "Kichibei, let them come close enough" 「吉兵衛、十分引き付けよ」


01:06 "Yes, sir" 「ハッ」


01:08　besiegers assault toward castle, yelling.

01:10 "Open the flash-pan lid"　「火蓋を切れぇい」

01:15 "Aim" 「目当て、付けい」

Musketeers aim their targets.

01:18 Besiegers muskets' balls fly by.

"Wait, wait, No, not now" 「まだまだぁ」

The scene is from the castle, first waves of besiegers are in full view.

01:23 castle defender' musketeers commander shouts,

"Fire" 「放てっ」

01:25　several of the besiegers are hit,

01:27

"Shoot counter-fire" 「防ぎ矢をいたせい」

Besiegers set up position behind 竹束, and shoot back against castle.


01:33 One of besiegers' battle captain shouts,

"Go, Go" 「かかれい、かかれい」

troops dashes.

01:37 Castle defenders' battle commander orders,

"Throw stones" 「飛礫を投げよ」

Stone slingers start to shoot.

01:43 stones hit besiegers wave.

01:45

Defenders and besiegers shoot against each others, across the moat by the castle's hill edge.

01:48

Some of besiegers' samurai(侍)s and ashigaru(足軽)s cross the barrier and go into the moat.

01:50

Some of besiegers assault across the bridge, while being shooted.


01:56

Besiegers who got across the moat starts to clim the castle's barrier, and defenders' battle captain repulse some of them.

defenders' battle captain orders,

"Nirou" 「二郎」

Nirou answers,

"Right away" 「心得た」

He sqwash the samurai on the radder with his 金砕棒(kana sai bou).

02:03

Besiegers crash wooden barriers, and try to cross the moat in mass.

02:07

"Do not let any one of them into the castle, repulse by the castle's barrier"

「一人も中に入れるな、塀際で迎え撃て」

02:10

Besiegers siege towers, on top of it, several of 足軽(ashi garu)　rotate and throw grenades.

02:11

defenders' battle captain's steward and bodyguard shouts,

"Grenades, counter fire" 「焙烙火矢じゃ、防ぎ矢ぁ」

Grenade impacts and explodes, defenders scatters and wooden platform destroyed.

02:26

"Jump" 「逃げろ｣

02:34
one of besiegers samurai enters castle, and proclams,

"sakuma gonnbei, the first to fight. No match for plain troops, are there anyone equal?"

「佐久間権兵衛、一番乗り。雑兵では相手にならん。だれぞ居らぬかぁ」

02:40
from the out of screen, defenders' battle captain shouts,

"I will" 「行くぞ」

defender's battle captain kill challenger instantly.

02:47
"Do not fear, just surround and kill" 「恐れるな、押し包んで討って取れ」

02:50

"Hooah" 「はっ」

02:55

the beseigers troops start to run,

"Run" 「逃げろぉ」

02:57

steward shouts

"Push back them" 「それ、押し戻せぇ」

[joseph_kerr]

The 300, from what I understand, isn't meant to be a historical movie. If I remember correctly, the trailers contain things which are quite clearly fantasy units.

And I don't mean unusual things, such as rhino cavalry. I mean things with fangs, carrying swords.

You look at the synopsis of the film from Possum's link and the first thing it says is 'based on epic graphic novel by Frank Miller'. It's too bad, i've been thinking for a while it'd be great to see a remake of the 300 Spartans with the movie technology available these days. Be careful what you wish for i suppose.

[dithyrambos]

You look at the synopsis of the film from Possum's link and the first thing it says is 'based on epic graphic novel by Frank Miller'. It's too bad, i've been thinking for a while it'd be great to see a remake of the 300 Spartans with the movie technology available these days. Be careful what you wish for i suppose.

I know. The 300 Spartans was an awesome movie, and among my favorites. This new movie looks like trash. It's an insult to Sparta, that's what it is.

[Redpossum]

You look at the synopsis of the film from Possum's link and the first thing it says is 'based on epic graphic novel by Frank Miller'. It's too bad, i've been thinking for a while it'd be great to see a remake of the 300 Spartans with the movie technology available these days. Be careful what you wish for i suppose.

I know. The 300 Spartans was an awesome movie, and among my favorites. This new movie looks like trash. It's an insult to Sparta, that's what it is.

Hmm, the 300 Spartans, that name rings a bell. OLD movie, right? 1950's or so?

[duncan]

You look at the synopsis of the film from Possum's link and the first thing it says is 'based on epic graphic novel by Frank Miller'. It's too bad, i've been thinking for a while it'd be great to see a remake of the 300 Spartans with the movie technology available these days. Be careful what you wish for i suppose.

I know. The 300 Spartans was an awesome movie, and among my favorites. This new movie looks like trash. It's an insult to Sparta, that's what it is.

Hmm, the 300 Spartans, that name rings a bell. OLD movie, right? 1950's or so?

http://imdb.com/title/tt0055719/

[coldknight]

I think that the movie is going to be a good one, i just dont like all that gods and goddesses stuff, but thats just me

[dithyrambos]

You look at the synopsis of the film from Possum's link and the first thing it says is 'based on epic graphic novel by Frank Miller'. It's too bad, i've been thinking for a while it'd be great to see a remake of the 300 Spartans with the movie technology available these days. Be careful what you wish for i suppose.

I know. The 300 Spartans was an awesome movie, and among my favorites. This new movie looks like trash. It's an insult to Sparta, that's what it is.

Hmm, the 300 Spartans, that name rings a bell. OLD movie, right? 1950's or so?

1961 actually. Starring Richard Egan, Sir Ralph Richardson, Diane Baker, and David Farrar. In my humble opinion it is one of the best movies ever made. It tells one of the most epic stories of selfless sacrifice made by one of the most amazing civilizations in history. And it gets the story almost exactly right. Truly an epic film in my book.

[Redpossum]

I know. The 300 Spartans was an awesome movie, and among my favorites. This new movie looks like trash. It's an insult to Sparta, that's what it is.

Hmm, the 300 Spartans, that name rings a bell. OLD movie, right? 1950's or so?

1961 actually. Starring Richard Egan, Sir Ralph Richardson, Diane Baker, and David Farrar. In my humble opinion it is one of the best movies ever made. It tells one of the most epic stories of selfless sacrifice made by one of the most amazing civilizations in history. And it gets the story almost exactly right. Truly an epic film in my book.

Yes, I checked out the link above, and I remember the film now.

This is one of the few films my step-dad insisted I watch, (not that I took much persuading!), and he went into great detail afterwards on the significance of the event. I suppose one can easily see how the topic of Thermopylae would appeal to a career Marine

The other thing I remember him insisting on was that I read a work by Winston Churchhill called "Never Give In", or something like that. This also was the occasion for a long and detailed lecture

All in all, I suppose the old man could have done far worse in terms of examples to set before my young eyes...

[dithyrambos]

Yes, I checked out the link above, and I remember the film now.

This is one of the few films my step-dad insisted I watch, (not that I took much persuading!), and he went into great detail afterwards on the significance of the event. I suppose one can easily see how the topic of Thermopylae would appeal to a career Marine

The other thing I remember him insisting on was that I read a work by Winston Churchhill called "Never Give In", or something like that. This also was the occasion for a long and detailed lecture

All in all, I suppose the old man could have done far worse in terms of examples to set before my young eyes...

Churchill and Leonidas were very likeminded people, except that Leonidas led his men into battle personally even though he was a king and Chuchill didn't do so as prime minister, but then, things change, and in Leonidas' day it was typical for politcal leaders to lead their men into battle, whereas now it is not so typical. But that point aside, I think they were almost exactly alike, and I'm positive they would've been best friends had they lived in the same time period and been given the chance to meet.

But Thermopylae was one of the most pivotal events in the history of the Western World, at least in the humble opinions of myself and other likeminded individuals. It is possible that Western Civilization could have died out in its infancy had the Spartans, Thespians, Korinthians, Tegeates, Lokrians, Phokians, and assorted others not made that brave stand against an army numbering nearly 2,000,000 (according to Herodotus). We certainly owe a very great amount of gratitude to Leonidas, Deinekes, and the other 5,000 heroes of Thermopylae. They set a standard for freedom loving people to live up to that has lasted for millenia, and will likely last forever.

[sum1won]

I recently read a book which compared churchhill to Pericles, actually. If I remember correctly, it was drawing a parallel between the world wars and the peloponesian wars.

[Redpossum]

Wow, this thread really took off, didn't it? We must all be bored.

Churchhill didn't lead his men personally, but then he was a much older man than Leonidas. In his youth, however, Winnie did his time in uniform.

The other point I'd make is that describing Leonidas as a political leader is somewhat questionable. The way the dual monarchy of the Lacedaemionians worked, the kings were almost purely military leaders. All civil authority rested firmly in the hands of the five magistrates, not the two kings.

Hmm, Peloponessian War as analogy for WWI/II. I suppose the validity of this analogy depends on how much credit one gives the Persians for formenting trouble between the greeks. If one concedes the Persians a major role, and I'd find it hard to argue against this, then the analogy fails because there was no comparable non-combatant power fomenting trouble between combatants in the 1930's/1940's.

[dithyrambos]

Wow, this thread really took off, didn't it? We must all be bored.

Churchhill didn't lead his men personally, but then he was a much older man than Leonidas. In his youth, however, Winnie did his time in uniform.

Churchil couldn't have been much older than Leonidas. Leonidas was already 60 by the time Thermopylae was fought. (One of the few inaccuracies of the movie "The 300 Spartans" was in depicting Leonidas in his prime. But I love the movie anyway).

The other point I'd make is that describing Leonidas as a political leader is somewhat questionable. The way the dual monarchy of the Lacedaemionians worked, the kings were almost purely military leaders. All civil authority rested firmly in the hands of the five magistrates, not the two kings.

That is true. However, the Lakedaimonian people looked to kings for guidance and leadership, not the ephors (did I spell that right?). And it was almost always (if not always) a king who represented Lakedaimon among the nations, and to whom emissaries spoke. The way I see it, Leonidas and Leotychides, along with all the other biarchs, were similar in position to Churchil, Bush, and other such leaders of our time, while the ephors were similar in position to parliament, congress, and other such organizations of our time.

Hmm, Peloponessian War as analogy for WWI/II. I suppose the validity of this analogy depends on how much credit one gives the Persians for formenting trouble between the greeks. If one concedes the Persians a major role, and I'd find it hard to argue against this, then the analogy fails because there was no comparable non-combatant power fomenting trouble between combatants in the 1930's/1940's.

I agree with you here. And also, is it really right to compare Churchil to Perikles? Afterall, Churchil won his war, but if I recall correctly, the Spartans beat the Athenians.

[Redpossum]

I would seriously question the datum that Leonidas was 60 by the time of Thermopylae.

What is your source for this information?