Kill % question ? (solved game works fine just use hunting)

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:02 am

I have noticed that when it is your turn and you click on your tank and target the enemy, you will see a percentage lets say 15% to kill... so you move in closer for a "better shot". You actually end up worse because the percentage goes down by about 50% and you are now closer to your target, but you have only a 7% chance to kill. Is there a bonus that you get for not moving your tank, or can someone verify that this is correct?

insidius · Post by **insidius** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:50 am

Your accuracy is higher if you are stationary. From what I can tell accuracy is dependent on distance and movement. If you are close AND haven't moved, your accuracy is highest. If you move or are far away, your accuracy is worse.

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:03 am

What I'm saying is, if your turn starts and the target is already in range, that is the best shot you are going to get so might as well take it. Do not move your tank or you will drop your percentage even if you move up right point blank in its rear the percentage is still lower. Just try it one time note the percentage you start with and then try to get a better shot it will not happen, the only time that happens is if you were not already in range at the start of the turn then it re-calculates. This is either purposely done as a bonus feature or i have just discovered a major bug in the game.

insidius · Post by **insidius** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:14 am

I agree with your assessment based on my own observations.

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:55 am

Logan5,

The displayed "chance to kill" is actually your "total chance to kill" ......

Code: Select all

totalChanceToKill = chanceToHit * chanceToPenetrate

The "total" is not used as an actual % calculation, just an overall estimate of your chance to hit and kill the target. As you can see, if you had a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance to kill (penetrate) then the Total = 25%.

The "chance to hit" and "chance to penetrate" are constantly recalculated as you move (move penalty applied) as range decreases (penetration chance increases(maybe)... ie, min damage/max damge array based on range). Not to mention the target units agility attribute if it moved that turn.

So, it's not a bug, just an undocumented explaination.

To avoid confusion, they should rename the display to read "Total Chance to Kill".

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:19 am

I understand how it is calculated, but try for yourself what I explained above and see if the results of that formula make sense. What is happening is you have not moved and you are in range, so the computer calculates your total chance to kill, if you move at this point the percentage can only go down because of the movement penalty. It doesn't matter what the other numbers work themselves out to be, the other numbers will never be significant enough to counter-balance the penalty for moving. So in other words the game is broken, sorry to say.. and the further you move the worse it is, you could have a 20% chance from max distance and turn it into a 1%er up close rear shot.

I think we may have stumbled on something big here and all the other complaints about armor, looking at this you can forget everything you thought you knew about how to balance the units in the game its not gunna happen

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:33 am

LOGAN5 wrote:I understand how it is calculated, but try for yourself what I explained above and see if the results of that formula make sense.

Yes, I have tried it and seen this ... and like I said, the "TOTAL CHANCE TO KILL" is not used in any calculation ... it's the the sum of that formula, nothing more.

If you understand how it is calculated then why do you think it's a bug? WWII tanks don't have a gun stabalizer, you can't move and shoot at the same time and expect the same accuracy while stationary ... they move, stop, shoot, then move again. The move/shoot in this game simulates a tank moving while shooting, lower hit chance. The more you move the faster you move (relative movement) and the worse it gets!

Remember, every time you move you lower your chance to hit, not your chance to penetrate.

That make sense?

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:14 am

LOGAN5 wrote: It doesn't matter what the other numbers work themselves out to be, the other numbers will never be significant enough to counter-balance the penalty for moving. So in other words the game is broken, sorry to say.. and the further you move the worse it is, you could have a 20% chance from max distance and turn it into a 1%er up close rear shot.

OK ... I get it .... The move penalty is driving you crazy.

Suggestion ... Open the Squad.CSV file and change all the MovePenalty[0] values to read 100. Most of the tanks read 50. With 100 you will have no move penalty and you can have your tanks run around and have the "kill chance" as if they were stationary. If this is too "gamey" then try something between 50-100 until you are satisified with the results.

LOGAN5 wrote:I think we may have stumbled on something big here and all the other complaints about armor

Yeah, I've read these complaints too ... but the complainers seem to forget that this game is moddable and if they don't provide a solution or mod of their own it's nothing but that, complaints. If we couldn't mod this game then yeah, complaints are justified.

If you don't have the tools to change the squad file then I'll be more than happy to upload a change ... just tell me know what values you want, perhaps even uploading several files that have 60, 70,80,90 as values.

Rob

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:19 am

I appreciate your help, but how about multiplayer. There is no reason in the world why a ww2 tank has a worse shot up close sneaking up on someones rear? Look at the maps you think these tanks are running around at full speed with all the twists and turns, there is no room for that. They aren't firing their guns going 45 miles per hour they are rolling around the corner turning the barrel and shooting. This is not just some kind of personal gripe with the movement penalty...

Take a look at the first gameplay video, it shows a sherman moving in closer and to the side of a panther, now if the house was not there he would have been better of shooting into the heavy front armor, because when he moves 2 tank lengths and turns his barrel his chances to kill are slim, and he will most likely be destroyed because since the panther is not moving he will not get a penalty on his return fire. So much for targeting side or rear armor, you don't see how the formula is actually ruining the simulation rather than helping simulate ww2 tank inaccuracies.

adherbal · Post by **adherbal** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:02 pm

I wonder if it would make sense to add a "static shot" that consumes not only an action/attack point but also all remaining movement points. The accuracy (chance to hit) of the shot would bebased on how many movement points are currently remaining. So if you haven't moved at all it's very accurate, but when you've moved at full speed (all MP consumed) it's very inaccurate.

Amaz_Ed · Post by **Amaz_Ed** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:15 pm

I like the idea of the 'static shot'. Am I not correct in thinking that German tanks rarely, if ever, fired while moving, whilst the Russians sacrificed accuracy by firing on the move and charging to contact to increase the chances of armour penetration by getting to close range fast? If firing whilst static then movement should be reduced for every shot fired.

How is the first shot calculated exactly? I don't see how the accuracy of a shot can be decided before a player has decided whther to move or not. If a tank does not move for the whole turn should it's first shot not be more accurate than the first shot of a tank that moves it's full distance after firing?

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:03 pm

Graphically it seems that the tanks are stopped when they shoot.. I think for a game it might be a good idea just to pretend that tanks don't move and shoot at the same time. If there is a static shot option it would probably be the only thing that would be used, after all why would anyone want to move in closer risk being shot, and then take a less accurate shot only to be able to move again and since your odds were bad most likely your enemy is still alive and will be shooting you again as you attempt to shoot and scoot. Thanks for looking into this.

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:17 pm

LOGAN5 wrote:Take a look at the first gameplay video, it shows a sherman moving in closer and to the side of a panther, now if the house was not there he would have been better of shooting into the heavy front armor, because when he moves 2 tank lengths and turns his barrel his chances to kill are slim, and he will most likely be destroyed because since the panther is not moving he will not get a penalty on his return fire. So much for targeting side or rear armor, you don't see how the formula is actually ruining the simulation rather than helping simulate ww2 tank inaccuracies.

Actually, the Panther does have a modifier against the moving Shermans AGILITY. Also, the OP Fire (called reaction fire) also has additonal % chances against the target depending upon where the moving unit (sherman in this case) is from the frontal arc, in 45 degree increments. The code shows that if the unit moves within 2 tiles (<3) it will automatically (OP) fire at 100%. Here is where the problem is if we have a Sherman rounds a corner 2 tiles from the Panther, and it's especialy ugly if the Panther was facing the other way!!

All of this appears to be "moddable" by looking at the code so a few tweaks here/there might help, will need testing.

I like the Static idea and this works fine for the FIRING UNIT, and I have an idea for the target unit regarding OP fire. A good reference for this idea is from the real world Small Unit tactic battle called "Battle of Singling" which pit's M4's vs Panthers and a few Stug's.

I'll outline the idea .....

ADD to the squad file ... TurretRotationSpeed .... We all know that the worst turret rotation is the Tiger. I know there's already a TurnSpeed column in the squad file but that's used for AP cost for turning in 45 degree increments (useless for OP fire since it doesn't cost anything to OP fire, however, having more AP means more op's ... might be usefull to limit target from spinning around engaging numerous attackers if it has full AP).

Turret Rotation Speed would be totally different as this would only allow an OP FIRE shot within 45 degrees of the current facing of the turret when the MOVING UNIT is first spotted. Beyond 45 degrees it would have to pass a "speed" check and if it fails it won't fire but it will turn the turret towards the unit. The Sneak Skill can help a bit (already is applied anyway) but it could be included in this check. Now the moving unit has a fighting chance because he can see that big 75LL or 88L barrel swinging around ....

Thoughts?

Rob

Zonso · Post by **Zonso** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:32 pm

Tigers and other German tanks may have had slow turret speeds, but they could do something most Allied tanks couldn't - namely rotate in place. If you are going to model one, you will have to model the other imo. Another huge advantage of the Tiger rarely modelled is the stable firing platform, most gun systems became miscalibrated even after firing one shot. Even moving cross-country without securing the gun barrel could and did throw out the alignment.

I like the static idea as well.

All WWII tanks had to stop and fire if they expected to hit anything! Any firing on the move would simply be for suppression or show. Some US tanks had gyrostabilizers, but I recall many were disabled.

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:39 pm

Merr: I don't think we need to model turret rotation speed and fire movement penalty those seem very technical. If we can pretend that tanks cannot go in reverse , I think we can pretend that all turrets turn the same, and that tanks need to stop to shoot. You have a good idea there but I just think a simple system would be more fun for a game, if you get closer your chance to kill should increase period. Im starting to realize that OP fire needs some tweaking but is really nothing compared to this problem.

Post by **pipfromslitherine** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:45 pm

If you are hunting to get closer then your penalty should be much reduced. Are you seeing this?

Cheers

Pip

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:55 pm

Pip: i just tried it and from what i see you are correct, i got closer and my chance to kill increased when i was "hunting".. so i guess it does work after all, so the lesson for this thread would be if you are in range of an enemy and wish to get closer use the hunting option or you will ruin your chance to kill. Thanks sorry to get everyone into a panic, the game is not broken everything is fine

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:18 pm

LOGAN5 wrote:Merr: I don't think we need to model turret rotation speed and fire movement penalty those seem very technical. If we can pretend that tanks cannot go in reverse , I think we can pretend that all turrets turn the same, and that tanks need to stop to shoot. You have a good idea there but I just think a simple system would be more fun for a game, if you get closer your chance to kill should increase period. Im starting to realize that OP fire needs some tweaking but is really nothing compared to this problem.

Tanks not going in reverse??? Yeah, that's another issue .

Ok, I modified the "FireLogic_AP.bsf" file .... commented out the following below (removed movepenalty) ... Tested it, Kill chance will now increase (when applicable) but won't decrease ;

Code: Select all

//	if ( moved != 1 )
//	{
//		chanceToHit *= 150 ;
//		chanceToHit /= 100 ;
//	}
//	else
//	{
//		chanceToHit *= GetAttribArray(me, "MovePenalty", 0) ;
//		chanceToHit /= 100 ;
//	}

Try that change in your FireLogic_AP file. ONLY IN YOUR CAMPAIGN FOLDER) ... so you'll have to create a quick scenario .

LOGAN5 · Post by **LOGAN5** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:21 pm

The game is actually fine now, thanks for trying to fix it but that is what the "hunting" option is for. You don't have as much movement penalty so you can increase your chance by getting closer, false alarm lol

Merr · Post by **Merr** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:41 pm

LOGAN5 wrote:The game is actually fine now, thanks for trying to fix it but that is what the "hunting" option is for. You don't have as much movement penalty so you can increase your chance by getting closer, false alarm lol

Yes ... Also, if you use Hunting or sneak, this will also decrease the chance that your target will OP fire you ... just stay 3 or more tiles away because at 2 tiles or less it will fire at 100%. I hate that but again, it can be changed with a tweak.