Creating scenarios & scripting

[delusan]

While I greatly enjoy this game, and have had some success in creating my own scenarios with some limited scripting - I think that BA would rise to the next level of popularity with a scenario creation engine that handles scripting for the scenario creator. I see some frustration with scripting here on the forum, and altho I can program in C/C++, I'm still somewhat bedazzled by the present scenario creation scripting process.

This is intended as a gentle suggestion to Slitherine that the provision of an editing engine that handles these scripting chores, writing the proper files to the proper places, etc , would enhance the games popularity, sales and gamers pleasure. I know it's possible because some of the all-time great wargames have done it (e.g. the Steel Panther series, John Tillers Campaign series). In my opinion, their editing engines are a large part of their success, and it would be great to see BA join their lofty ranks.

I DO like this game - and it has so much potential!

[pipfromslitherine]

I'm not quite sure what you mean? I agree that the placement of files can sometimes trip people up - but it does feed back from the fact that modders have all the same freedom that we do with regard to changing the game, and writing a full game is pretty complex .

Having said that, if there are specific shortcuts that you think would help people to get going on specific types of mods they might want, then we'll certainly take a look at anything that would make things easier for people to let their creativity run free.

Cheers

Pip

[delusan]

pip thanks for the rapid response. Not sure I can elaborate but I'll try ... in Steel Panthers for instance, when creating a scenario you can click on a button then the map location to set a victory location ... click on a counter type button to set the victory points. What Im trying to suggest is a simple "click system" where the creator inputs his scenario parameters and the program then writes this data to the proper script file. In essence, the user doesnt have to edit the script files, save his edited files, etc - he inputs his scenario parameters into a GUI type interface (whatever the parameters may be - please dont focus on the VP stuff above ... its just an example) and the program then writes this data to the proper script file and saves it etc. No need for those inexperienced with programming/programming logic to struggle with using the proper functions etc.

As i think about it ... maybe someone could write an add-on program for scenario creators that does this and post it in the scenario section of the forum - that would obviate the need to alter the editor itself. Please understand, I'm just an amateur programming hacker and not at all sure that any of this could be done.

Just inquiring.

[junk2drive]

In addition to the above and comments elsewhere on the difficulty understanding the scripts, the other frustration is that files and folders are all over the place. There hasn't been a clear instruction on what files go where unless someone posts a problem in the forums and gets a reply.

There needs to be a cohesive "for dummies" manual for modding the game.

[Amaz_Ed]

Would it be possible to create templates for different game types? In Operation Flashpoint, a very powerful editor with much scripting required, templates were created which map makers could use as a start point for a scenario. All they needed to do was choose an area in which the game would take place and move the various elements around the map. These were created by members of the community.

[adherbal]

I wonder if it would be possible to have a single "custom scenarios" folder, instead of working with a seperate campaign for each scenario/user. A scenario really only needs 2 files: BAM & BSF. The problem are the strings which are shared in the text.txt files, so there would have to be a solution for that. Perhaps allowing to use actual strings in the scenarios, instead of only string IDs? Custom scenarios usualy won't have/need localised versions anyway.

As for the complexity of creating scenarios, I think part of the problem is that a lot of people want to do more than just creating custom scenarios, like adding new nations and units. That's great of course, but this is called "modding" and it's really only suited for people dedicated to learning the game in and out. That goes for modding any game, not just BBC BA. That means we have to deal with both simple questions and more advanced ones which is probably confusing a lot of people.

I think it might be useful if we (Slitherine) creates a "beginners guide" about creating simple custom scenarios. Currently a lot of the information on there is very advanced, into the "modding" category, which must be scaring off a lot of people. I posted a "tutorial" about placing VP's and victory conditions, which is think is simple enough, but it still doesn't cover basic AI behaviour like sending team X to VP Y at turn Z.

[pipfromslitherine]

I have updated the engine docs on the Modding Portal to include a full layout of all the files that you could have in a custom campaign. It also includes an appendix with all the script commands. This duplicates the autodocs already available, but does put it all to hand in the same document.

One of the reasons there seem to be a lot of different files and folders is that you can to a large extent pick and choose what you want to tinker with, so it's not all monolithic. This is, I guess, both a blessing and a curse.

The Template scenario posted in the modding forum is designed as a beginner's guide to help people who want to do more than just create a map and go fight on it.

We'll keep answering questions on the forums of course, we're happy to. It also helps us see what concepts or paradigms you guys are finding most tricky, and we can then focus documents or templates specifically.

Cheers

Pip

[Jugger]

Yes Yes. Delusan idea would make this game so much more enjoyable. Short cut buttons for a number of the more basic type script commands would make this game shine(If it can be done). Despite being good at map making, I was put off making my own scenarios in games such as "Blitzkrieg" and "Suddenstrike" due to the large amount of scripting involved. People these days live very hectic lifestyles and work long hours and may be put off creating there own scenarios due to this. It already takes several hours to create a decent map and I haven't even thought about placing units on the map or scripting for them. I believe this would be great addition to the editor.
An example would be a reinforcements tab where you create your reinforcements and then include what turn and what map coordinate to arrive/enter on? A search and destroy tab assign a unit a group or team I.D and then set up a number of map coordinates where you would like the units to go? Dug-in tab? Victory point nationality, location and value. A tab that sets the number of turns and victory conditions? etc..etc..?

[junk2drive]

This is an example of what I mentioned above

It shouldn't be CORE\ANIM within your campaign, just ANIM.

So,

My Docs\My Games\BBCBA\Campaigns\MyCampaign\ANIM

Cheers

Pip

Someone copies the original campaign and follows the folder structure. But then finds out the folder needs to go somewhere else.

UNITICONS.dds is in the Core folder in the game, but goes in the campaign name main folder if you mod it.

There are probably a few more examples but you get the idea.

[pipfromslitherine]

It's not entirely orthogonal, yes. Even we get caught sometimes - though there are usually reasons behind it (albeit often just history). Hopefully the directory chart in the updated docs should mean that it's simple to be sure you're putting the files in the right place.

Cheers

Pip

[junk2drive]

I checked the STUB doc and see that you added some things. I guess I missed that announcement.

Edit: I see now it was in a post above this.

[delusan]

Jugger is right on. What I am suggesting is the possibility of creating good scenarios WITH NO SCRIPTING being required by the scenario creator. The editor handles all the scripting chores.

[pipfromslitherine]

That would be pretty non-trivial, but I think I may have a compromise that might be doable without a huge investment in coding time.

+ create a new folder which can be used for Template scenario scripts.
+ you can choose the attach one of these Templates (basically copies the scenario script) to a map inside the editor
+ I add the ability to externalise some functionality to the editor via custom UI scripting or the like. Thus, you attach the VP Template, and it adds some UI allowing you to set up the various values you need, set values to create specific behaviours, etc.

It's both flexible and keeps all the special casing inside the scripting.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Pip

[delusan]

The only thought I have regarding that is that it sounds a lot like - "Sorry, but Slitherine is not going to make that happen."

Too bad - BA had such great potential ... but there are some other games in the works by other publishers that do provide FULL editors with NO scripting. I'm pointing my money in their direction.

[adherbal]

It's interesting how much you enjoy complaining delusan. Some misplaced interpretation of "customer is king" I guess.

I remember being part of the Total War modding community a few years ago. We barely had any support from the developers and no one who really asked for it either. And still the game probably has more mods than even Halflife 2, some of amazing quality.
I guess some people just enjoy taking the time to figure things out themselves instead of complaining about bad customer support - regardless of how excellent it is. Hats off to Slitherine.

I'm sure the other publishers will be happy to have you. At least it'll save me some time and frustration replying - or resisting to reply - to posts like this.

[insidius]

I think the support here has been phenomenal. I have never had developers work so closely with me on such trivial scripting problems as I have had here. I know exactly nothing about scripting, try to learn as best I can, but they're all been a great help to me here each and every question I've had.

[Rosseau]

An East Front expansion for $25 is probably more practical than a user-friendly editor. Not that I wouldn't love a "place VP" button and a few other tweaks. A lot of players wouldn't even use a full featured editor, but are going to want more fresh scenarios pretty soon.

I admit to having problems scripting. But I will check out the new stuff Pip has posted.

[delusan]

adherbal -

not complaining at all. Simply made a suggestion to Slitherine regarding what I thought might enhance this games popularity among wargamers - and there seems to be some support for my suggestion here on the forum. I used some very popular wargames as examples of full featured(for want of a better term) editors that do not require scripting. My thought is that such an editor probably creates an appeal to more wargamers and thereby increases not only the users enjoyment, but also potential sales - and indirectly, the popularity of PC wargaming.

I have absolutely no beef with Slitherine. I made the decision to buy the game. My choice, my responsibility. I have succeeded in creating a few scenarios ... again no beef there - but I am able to program in C, and I am able to deal with programming logic, functions, passing variables, globals, text files, etc. But for those gamers out there who choose not to get into C-like programming in order to develop full scenarios ... well, lets just say that Slitherine could have done a better job at creating an editor for them. But who knows? Perhaps in the future ... perhaps never.

Again - no complaints from me. I chose to buy the game, and Im dealing just fine with the scenario creation process. But, altho I will probably enjoy a quick game of BA now and then - it will never sit on the top layer of my wargaming shelf. That too is my choice.

I sincerely hope that BA does well for Slitherine. Look ... an easy to use/no scripts required editor is like chicken soup - it cant hurt. It WILL increase the games popularity. It's that simple.

You mention the Total War series. I own every one of them. They are an absolutely fantastic PC wargame series (and community)! Setting up your own scenarios/battles in a Total War game is a dream (not a nightmare as in some other games that we wont mention). Absolutely no scripting required. You make my point for me. Thank you.

Think I'll go play some Total War Rome now (it's on the top layer of my wargames shelf). I have an idea for a new scenario. Should take me about 10 minutes to create it because the superb editor allows the creation of a complete battle with just a few clicks. I'll be playing my new scenario within 20 minutes of posting this forum reply. It would be great if we could do the same with BA, wouldnt it?

As far as your 'complaint' regarding "... customer is king" ... quite a novel idea. Hope it catches on.

[pipfromslitherine]

The only thought I have regarding that is that it sounds a lot like - "Sorry, but Slitherine is not going to make that happen."

Too bad - BA had such great potential ... but there are some other games in the works by other publishers that do provide FULL editors with NO scripting. I'm pointing my money in their direction.

I simply don't know how you get that from my post. You can create an entire battle in BA without touching a script. With a script you can create an entirely new game. That's why it is more complex.

My post specifically stated that it was a solution to providing push button support for any in-mission mechanics that we or you guys might want. Not a single negative in the entire post.

[adherbal]

Setting up your own scenarios/battles in a Total War game is a dream (not a nightmare as in some other games that we wont mention). Absolutely no scripting required. You make my point for me. Thank you.

Actualy without scripting you could only fight a very basic "fire and forgot" AI if you didn't do any scripting. At least in Rome Total War, I didn't put much time in the later titles. You can do exactly the same in the BBC editor: set up forces and make them attack eachother, no scripting required.
We at the Lordz Games Studio actualy started as the Lordz Modding Collective and did the Napoleonic I and II mods for MTW and RTW. I created the Borodino battle myself on the RTW engine for the NTW 2 mod. It required much more scripting than any scenario the original game had (and there certainly weren't any tools available to create those scripts automatically). So this bit about making points is a bit out of place.

As far as your 'complaint' regarding "... customer is king" ... quite a novel idea. Hope it catches on.

That's actualy a Dutch expression. Always happy to share some culture.