Authors Poll: Points System Input

[shall]

We are now going to take a look at revising the points system for further testing. In doing so, we would appreciate answers to 2 questions please:

1. Looking at the current points system which if any troops do you find:

Heavily Overpriced
Overpriced
Underpriced
Heavily Underpriced

2. Given all the armies you have used for far are there any that seem:

Very good value for points paid
Very poor value for points paid

We will be using the information to issue a points up date in about 10 days time.

Cheers

Si

PS could you also note how many games of AOW you have played and if you change your view over time EDIT your posting so we end up with one from each person. Ta

[marshalney2000]

Due to deathlt silence so far, I will set the ball rolling by saying that I believe heavy weapon for anyone is too costly. I know it can be effective but in impact makes no difference against several classes of heavy foot and indeed loses out to ssw.
John

[madaxeman]

light chariots seemed overpriced, as the can't do that much except fight other light chariots in period...

And generals seem oddly priced, but then again maybe I havent seen how to use them save in front rank combat !

[sagji]

MF Avg, prot, drill, crossbow are overpriced - they often run into the problem of being unable to get enough dice to force a CT.
poor are overpriced
superior are underpriced
TC are underpriced - in that I don't consider not taking 4 generals even at 700 pts.
FC are overpriced - in that I don't consider upgrading a TC to a FC, but could just be too big a difference wrt TC.
non-C-in-C IC are overpriced.

<added>
Also spearmen are probably underpriced.

[petedalby]

Agreed on the Generals. Suggest TC at 40, FC at 50 and IC at 75.

Still only 3 games under my belt so still too early to comment on other troop types.

[donm]

I am begining to think that skirmishers are getting a raw deal. Assuming the training and armour is the same a base of skirmishers cost the same as a base of non skirmishers. For this the skirmishers melee and shoot at one dice per two, were as others only shoot at half when in a second rank and have no penalty in melee. When shot at they get no benefit for being dispersed. Seems a bit over priced for the ability to evade no mater what formation.

Don M

[hammy]

OK,

I think that there is something wrong with the costs of generals although this might just be me not having worked out how to get the best from them yet. I think TC's are too cheap overall

Heavy weapon seems rather overpriced for what it seems to deliver but I have only used them once IIRC.

Crossbow seem a bit weak for the cost. A lot of the time because of the lower number of dice they can't do anything. OK they are actually free but feel significantly less effective than bow even against armoured targets. The fundamental issue is that if you need say 3 hits to have an effect it is infinitely better to be rolling 3 dice needing a 5 rather than 2 needing a 4

Initially I felt that javelin armed light foot were over priced but in the last game I played my light javelinmen were OK. It is still a bit of an issue that even if they can upset the cohesion of their target charging in is still a big risk even against a relatively weak troop type as with no break off once things go sour they can't get away.

Hammy

[sagji]

I am begining to think that skirmishers are getting a raw deal. Assuming the training and armour is the same a base of skirmishers cost the same as a base of non skirmishers. For this the skirmishers melee and shoot at one dice per two, were as others only shoot at half when in a second rank and have no penalty in melee. When shot at they get no benefit for being dispersed. Seems a bit over priced for the ability to evade no mater what formation.

Don M

Lf undrilled, unprotected, ... cost the same as Mf undrilled, unprotected, ...

The Lf do have some advantages
+1 MU move
maneuver as skirmishers - better even than drilled
Don't suffer a "+" when shot at
Can evade in any formation
Don't suffer from insecure flanks in CTs

and some disadvantages
Reduced shooting (less dice if Bow, "-" if xBow)
Half dice in close combat.
Need a CMT to charge most enemy - but can't fight these anyway.
Don't give support to friends in CTs.


I think there is a problem with LF/LH in that they pay full price for better armour, impact and melee POAs but gain less benefit from them than others.

[jre]

I suppose the Light Spear change will bring a new point cost as well. The main problems I have found are expensive units lacking the right POAs, so it is more of a list problem rather than a troop problem. Medium/heavy foot with only javelins/light spear, for instance, or with crossbow, as mentioned above, who are only marginally useful as missile and are just Attrition fodder if caught in melee. Drilled protected crossbowmen come to mind.

Although I will try to write a report when I have time, we deliberately played an ahistorical game (New Empire Egyptian vs Medieval German) to check it and the Light Chariots are quite succesful against medieval armies, specially knights. An effect of their in-built armour suppression. So I still find them expensive against historical enemies, but cheap against armour-loaded ahistorical ones.

I am liking more and more skirmishers (in small amounts). As attrition build up they have more survivability than other BG types, and against shock troops and missile-less foot they can perform quite well their delaying/provoking role. Just as long as you accept they will kill almost nothing.

Right now I consider armoured and heavily armoured superior and elite foot too cheap when undrilled (and average grades too expensive when drilled). Other foot usually is used in big groups so the point cost becomes high but these can be fielded in small effective BGs. So rather than making drilled more expensive for armoured, I would make superior and elite more expensive. Just my impression from using a fully average army (Late German Medieval).

Heavily Armoured foot is too cheap compared to armoured, so I would keep their extra drilled cost, at least.

When you get better category troops you are not changing much the basic odds, but you get a protection against extreme effects (such as rolling a 2 or a 3 in a cohesion test).

I am judging just from what I would take in a list, if given the choice.

Superior (or elite) effective shooters (Bw/LB MF or Bw Cav/LCh) should cost 1 point extra. Those shooting rerolls really add up effectivity compared to simple melee troops.

Heavy Weapons should be cheaper for Armoured or Heavily Armoured foot. (So in fact I would keep dismounted men-at-arms at roughly the same point cost they have now).

All in my humble opinion, of course. Now five games experience.

Jos?©

[hammy]

I am looking at sorting out my army for Usk and I am comming to the conclusion that perhaps pike are overpriced. Granted they are powerful if they are four ranks deep BUT you have to pay a lot for that i.e. buy four ranks of troops.

Consider Swiss pike, (superior,protected,drilled) currently they cost 10 points per base or 40 per frontage....
They are not that different to armoured offensive spearmen who cost (assuming superior drilled) 13 per base or 26 per frontage.

Just simple average protected drilled pikemen are 8 per base or 32 per file.

I think that pike may be better served as a 0 cost capability.

Hammy

[donm]

Just simple average protected drilled pikemen are 8 per base or 32 per file.

I think that pike may be better served as a 0 cost capability.

Would this not give the possibility of a Scots common army being too cheap.

Poor protected undrilled pikemen at 3 per base or 12 per file.

I have not worked out an army, but I think the table may be somewhat crowded.


Don M

[hammy]

Just simple average protected drilled pikemen are 8 per base or 32 per file.

I think that pike may be better served as a 0 cost capability.

Would this not give the possibility of a Scots common army being too cheap.

Poor protected undrilled pikemen at 3 per base or 12 per file.

I have not worked out an army, but I think the table may be somewhat crowded.


Don M

Quite possibly, I was just working from the fact that as I considered armies for Usk I saw pikemen, thought now there's a plan and then decided they were too expensive.

[nikgaukroger]

Would this not give the possibility of a Scots common army being too cheap.

Poor protected undrilled pikemen at 3 per base or 12 per file.

I have not worked out an army, but I think the table may be somewhat crowded.


Don M

FYI Scots are Undrilled, Protected, Offensive Spearmen, Spearmen and Average.

[donm]

FYI Scots are Undrilled, Protected, Offensive Spearmen, Spearmen and Average.

It'll be back to the armoured spearmen then

Don