how to hold a line

[Brigz]

Thanks. Saved me the trouble of setting up a test scenario.

I wonder if this should be changed. Just doesn't seem right that MF are impervious to streams and such. What would be the rational for that?

[Ironclad]

I just remade my test scenario and Mediums have no ill effects at all assaulting troops opposite a steam (or gully) Even Offensive spear mediums still get the spear POA ( I thought they wouldnt as not "clear terrain" but oh well there it is, no effect at all, and after all these years assuming otherwise

I guess mediums are your combat engineers to be used to assault rivers!

The difference with combat engineers is that they are only a small fraction of a modern army unlike the full medium armies that inhabit the lists. This rule keeps catching me out as I manage to blank it out after a few matches and then get caught again.

After a great defensive victory holding a river with my legions against Parthian Cats, the opposite occurred when trying the same trick with heavy armies against Illyrians and later a slave medium army. What is crazy is that you can't choose to stand near a river even on the defensive when using heavies against mediums because a successful combat against an attacking medium pulls your troops into the drink and instant disorder. Good case for a no follow up rule.

[TheGrayMouser]

He he, unlike any other game, for me in FOG something clicks, i understand a combat mechanism completely and then several weeks/ months later the knowledge disappears and i start making very erronious assumptions... I dont think in any other game Ive had to "relearn" things so many times.... Guess it keeps one on his toes, lol

I agree that mediums should have some mal effect for being in a river.... For all intents and purposes an equivalent medium is way superior to a heavy troop of the same specs (except pikes which are really a class of their own) They are faster , less effected by terrain or not at all) and cheaper... The only drawback they have is they are more vulenrable to cavalry, but not by a lot...

Hmm, maybe I will try one of those Hellenistic Greek armies out... The Ipa-freakan mercenaries are really well done graphics wise.

[batesmotel]

In the TT rules, troops defending a riverbank get a +POA. For the PC version, probably the best way to do this would be to give attacking troops in a stream hex a -POA for both melee and impact. This would eliminate the problem that MF completely ignore any disadvantage created when attacking from a stream hex.

MF are also disadvantaged against HF in combat in that they take a -1 on cohesion tests when they lose to HF in combat.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

In the TT rules, troops defending a riverbank get a +POA. For the PC version, probably the best way to do this would be to give attacking troops in a stream hex a -POA for both melee and impact. This would eliminate the problem that MF completely ignore any disadvantage created when attacking from a stream hex.

MF are also disadvantaged against HF in combat in that they take a -1 on cohesion tests when they lose to HF in combat.

Chris

A that a good idea

B yet another rule/mechanism that i have just relearned

[Mercutio]

In the TT rules, troops defending a riverbank get a +POA. For the PC version, probably the best way to do this would be to give attacking troops in a stream hex a -POA for both melee and impact. This would eliminate the problem that MF completely ignore any disadvantage created when attacking from a stream hex.

MF are also disadvantaged against HF in combat in that they take a -1 on cohesion tests when they lose to HF in combat.

Chris

A that a good idea

B yet another rule/mechanism that i have just relearned

Good things the rules are so clear!

[Scutarii]

I only know that HF units (special pike units) attaking enemy units in non clear terrain (except streams and gully) are dead meat even in impact, only cavalry in woods is a minor problem but even HF can break your units... the disordered or very disordered feature for HF units is less important than malus for attacker units.

Yes, defend a line based on terrain obstacles is impossible in FoG, i think that if they do a feature for evasion in the next add-on could be interesting another feature to control pursuits... maybe do this avaliable for average (or better) and drilled units??? a good way to made drilled units more important can show it as a STOP signal over the unit and you can deploy it as stakes and could pay a penalty for use this feature because you need un-stop units and this means like with stakes no move units or only move 1 hex (even MF units) in this turn

PD: the combo medium foot+field/orchard/woods is letal and with few units you can secure one of your flanks and increase the time (even stop) an enemy flank attack i do it few times but it with a little help of dices win battles

[frankpowerful]

is it right and realistic that defending BGs MUST advance after winning a combat?
maybe i've not learnt how to play yet, but i find impossible to stand fast and hold a good defensive line, as your light troops and cavalry will fallback if attacked and your infantry will advance if victorious.
i find that defensive tactics in the game are simply not feasible, but they were a reality on ancient and medieval battlefields. in the game, one is always forced to attack

evaluating the answers - only Deadtorius responded on the point that was raised - I remain convinced that in the game it is impossible to hold a defensive line. i would dare to add: in this game, who attacks, usually wins

[Blathergut]

"Who attackes usually wins...if he rolls well!"

[TheGrayMouser]

is it right and realistic that defending BGs MUST advance after winning a combat?
maybe i've not learnt how to play yet, but i find impossible to stand fast and hold a good defensive line, as your light troops and cavalry will fallback if attacked and your infantry will advance if victorious.
i find that defensive tactics in the game are simply not feasible, but they were a reality on ancient and medieval battlefields. in the game, one is always forced to attack

evaluating the answers - only Deadtorius responded on the point that was raised - I remain convinced that in the game it is impossible to hold a defensive line. i would dare to add: in this game, who attacks, usually wins

Have you ever gone against a Lancastrian army on steep hilled terrain? As that stupid and annoying computer said in that really old movie w Mathew Broderick: "the only way to win , is not to play"

[deadtorius]

Part of the problem VS MF is that they are in terrain, and you are in a clear hex but when you fight, you fight as if you were also standing in said terrain. So MF in a stream may be disordered, but the heavies defending the bank are now very disordered, thus its 3 dice for the MF vs 2 for the HF. Makes it very hard to defend or attack into anything but open ground, which is where you are trying to draw your opponent out into but if they are smart they stand in the ugly stuff and mock you.
On the TT if you can keep your BG base clear of the ugly stuff you don't suffer the terrain effects.
So how to solve said problem??? That seems to be the main issue players are finding difficult to overcome. Unfortunately I have been there myself and I don't have any answers either. Sometimes its just not easy to take your heavies and try to dislodge an enemy standing in ugly terrain that you have to eliminate because you can't move past him. Sending in multiple troops to attack is one way, then you reduce his dice, but the losses you will take are not going to be good for you thats for sure.
I find this is the really sticky issue in FOG PC that you don't run into on the TT. Perhaps some of you can come up with some ideas on deciding which hex you are really in. The game could randomly determine if the fighting takes place in the terrain or in the open to give our heavies a chance in combat.

[deeter]

Actually, streams only effect the unit in them, but the comment is true for marshes, woods, etc. On the TT it is possible to draw stands into bad going during combat, so that's okay too. I rather like it that HF get nailed fighting into bad terrain from clear. I can't picture a phalanx standing at the edge of a wood and jabbing at skirms or MF with impunity.

What to do? Stay away from bad terrain with HF where possible. Although I recently had to send my Silver Shields to the top of a steep hill to fight Extraoridnarii below. The melee went on forever until I could hit them in the rear with cav. I often send Impact HF into bad terrain because they are much less affected than pikes.

Deeter

[Scutarii]

Well, not allways attacker win, if you dont have an attack army (roman style with good quality, armor, impact and melee weapons) defender have more than 50% to win and if is a pike army.... i use late macedonians and i can select attack or defend because pike units are strong in defense but with impact feature are usefull in assault but more in defensesive and here for attacker is more important select the moment and point to attack defending in other parts using terrain or other features.

MF in non clear terrain (woods are the best for MF) can fight all you send and are perfect to stop, or at least slow, flank attacks

[76mm]

I've played a few games in IF now, and the anarchy charges are still kind of ridiculous IMO. Two out of four spearman holding a hill scampered off after some archers. Impossible for pikes or hoplites to keep an orderly line, and hoplites charging phalanx--I thought this would fall into the "not bloody likely" category?

[Nikolax]

With a leader in range and drilled troop, my hoplites (HF shock) rarely charge (max of 1 way on a battle).

[Brigz]

I'd just as well see the Anarchy charge feature totally eliminated. It takes more away from the game than adds to it. If nothing else make it optional or, better yet, make it a variable trait for individual BG's. At least that way if you want to have a defensive line, they will hold their position and not run off chasing some silly little stone thrower or spear chucker.

[76mm]

With a leader in range and drilled troop, my hoplites (HF shock) rarely charge (max of 1 way on a battle).

Completely disagree. My troops are drilled and under command, and anarchy several times per battle. Doesn't make sense.

[maximvs]

I'm not sure, do the rules currently allow undrilled troops to Anarchy charge more frequently than drilled troops?

If they don't then I think they should - that's the whole point of drilling your men - so they are less likely to go running off doing their own thing without orders.

You could additionally argue that superior and elite troops should be more reliable than average and poor ones.

[Morbio]

I'm not sure, do the rules currently allow undrilled troops to Anarchy charge more frequently than drilled troops?

If they don't then I think they should - that's the whole point of drilling your men - so they are less likely to go running off doing their own thing without orders.

You could additionally argue that superior and elite troops should be more reliable than average and poor ones.

The troop rating (poor, average, superior and elite) reflects their fighting competency rather than their ability to follow orders effectively.

I agree that drilled should be subject to less anarchy than undrilled.. although I don't think the anarchy rules reflect this..... although I could be wrong in this respect.

[pantherboy]

Drilled troops recieve an additional +1 to their check.