New Player: Classical Greece

[ATXPaul]

Hello everyone!

I'm Paul, from Austin, Texas US. I am just getting into Field of Glory and was going out to buy the books tomorrow, only because the game store closed before work ended today.

With introductions out of the way, here is the questions. I am planning to play as Classical Greece, so bear with me:

1) Aside from period events and tournaments, is there any reason why I should take the later Protected hoplites versus the older Armored ones? It seems that Armored is better in almost every way.

2) Spartans are good; with a Spartan battlegroup you get Superior troops. It seems like, though, you'd be saddled with fewer battlegroups. Is this a major disadvantage, or is the trade-off worth it in game terms?

3) I've done a bit of studying, and I have a vague doctrinal idea of Greek hoplite/phalanx warfare. This question concerns skirmish troops: are they normally used in a Greek force as wing protection for the phalanx? Or to keep enemy shooters away? Or attrition/disruption against enemy heavy foot?

4) Cavalry: Greek cavalry leaves a bit to be desired. It is good for chasing off enemy skirmishers/missile troops/ light foot that annoy my shock troops and force an untimely charge. Are they worth it?

5) Drilled vs. Undrilled hoplites: I know the advantages and disadvantages of drilled/undrilled in general, and it seems that hoplites would be better served as undrilled in the main, as they seem to want to get to grips with the enemy without fancy maneuvers. However, drilled troops can maneuver in response to enemy threats EXTREMELY quickly in comparison, without a commander. Addiitonally, they recover better from pursuing the enemy. Which should my primary battle-line contain; drilled or undrilled? Or a mixture? Or what?

[grahambriggs]

My thoughts:

1. The armoured ones are better but more expensive, so you get less of them. There are some enemies that the armoured doesn't do any better than protected against (longbow shooting, elephants, chariots, heavy weapons, heavily armoured or unprotected troops). But the armoured guys are better than protected against the majority of opponents. The extra numbers of protected is the major plus; in time you might appreciate that but as a new player the armoured are the way to go.

2. It's handy to have a couple of superior BGs to give a point of breakthough. The problem with having lots is that, as you say, you get less of them. The army would be too small I fear.

3. Unsupported Light foot on the wings will tend to be slaughtered by enemy mounted. A good use of them is to skirmish in front of the phalanx. That does a number of good things:
- pins the enemy back, allowing your phalanx to make second moves.
- worry away at the enemy heavy foot. If they're shock troops they might lose control and charge the psiloi.
- stop enemy light foot tempting your hoplites into charges that will pull them out of position.

4. The cavalry is weak indeed. It may be handy as rear support but I would suggest the points are better spent on hoplites.

5. I like mostly undrilled for the main line but a few drilled troops on an exposed flank are worth having.

[batesmotel]

The other thing to consider for armoured versus protected hoplites is that there are better quality supporting troops available for later dates in the list so that can be a consideration. One thing you might try would be the period in the list between 490 and 460 B.C. where both the armoured and protected options are available. By armoured hoplites for your main battle line and some cheaper protected hoplites that you can use to provide read support or for a refused flank where you will not be counting on them to win the battle.

Chris

[babyshark]

I think Graham's analysis is pretty solid, so I won't bother repeating it. I will emphasize one point, though, about the light foot. A solid line of steady spears is an unpleasant sight for most opponents, and so you will often see a strategy of opponents using their light foot to tempt your BGs into charging against orders and to focus shooting one one BG at a time to try to drop it to disrupted (or worse) before your line reaches them. So your LF will be used very much in a screening role in front of the hoplites, rather than separately on the wings.

Marc

[ethan]

I think you can do all right with a mostly drilled Spartan army, but don't go crazy on the Superior spears. They are extremely powerful and have a price tag to match. The real advantage is getting the average drilled guys in pretty sizable numbers.

One option is to go with the 490-460 period and take an ally of undrilled protected guys to bulk up and save points. They can be surrounded by drilled Spartans to keep them from getting outmaneuvered.

LF is pretty important and getting a BG of the cheapest average cavalry you can get to use as a rear support for average hoplites is probably worthwhile IMO.

[ATXPaul]

I think Graham's analysis is pretty solid, so I won't bother repeating it. I will emphasize one point, though, about the light foot. A solid line of steady spears is an unpleasant sight for most opponents, and so you will often see a strategy of opponents using their light foot to tempt your BGs into charging against orders and to focus shooting one one BG at a time to try to drop it to disrupted (or worse) before your line reaches them. So your LF will be used very much in a screening role in front of the hoplites, rather than separately on the wings.

Marc

So a method would be thusly:

A battle-line of heavy foot, with mostly armored troops (maybe superior) in the center and protected on the wings. In front of all of them is a screen of LF. So I should keep a 2 MU gap between HF battlegroups for LF to retire behind? Or can LF move through HF without bursting through?

[babyshark]

So a method would be thusly:

A battle-line of heavy foot, with mostly armored troops (maybe superior) in the center and protected on the wings. In front of all of them is a screen of LF. So I should keep a 2 MU gap between HF battlegroups for LF to retire behind? Or can LF move through HF without bursting through?

The LF can interpenetrate the HF without any issues, so no worries on that score. You might consider either interspersing the Spartiates BGs in among the average, protected BGs, or perhaps putting the Spartiates on the wings and the rest in the center. Either way, that makes it harder for the enemy to avoid your hard guys and focus on the (relatively) weak parts of the army.

Regardless, you want drilled BGs on the wings. The center will rely more on grinding forward and less on maneuver to counter threats.

Marc

[grahambriggs]

So a method would be thusly:

A battle-line of heavy foot, with mostly armored troops (maybe superior) in the center and protected on the wings. In front of all of them is a screen of LF. So I should keep a 2 MU gap between HF battlegroups for LF to retire behind? Or can LF move through HF without bursting through?

The LF can interpenetrate the HF without any issues, so no worries on that score. You might consider either interspersing the Spartiates BGs in among the average, protected BGs, or perhaps putting the Spartiates on the wings and the rest in the center. Either way, that makes it harder for the enemy to avoid your hard guys and focus on the (relatively) weak parts of the army.

Regardless, you want drilled BGs on the wings. The center will rely more on grinding forward and less on maneuver to counter threats.

Marc

For shame Paul! The best troops should be in the place of honour - on the right flank! Well, sort of. The undrilled being in the centre is good as they can just plod forwards. You put the drilled guys on the wings as they can better react to things coming round the flank. Undrilled troops who don't have a general have to test to wheel/turn when within 6MU of the enemy, drilled troops don't.

[ATXPaul]

So would this army perform well: (it's only a theoretical one, I haven't added up the points yet.)

Say, two battlegroups of Spartans (Armored, Superior, Drilled, offensive spear)
then four battlegroups of Periokoi (Armored, average, drilled, offensive spear)
four to six battlegroups of generic hoplites (Protected, average, undrilled, offensive spear)
two to four battlegroups of javelins (unprotected poor undrilled JLS)
one battlegroup of Cretan archers (Unprotected Superior Undrilled bow)

[ATXPaul]

Alright, having added up the points and ensured legality, here is my 800 pts. army:

Inspired Commander
Troop Commander
(2x) BG of six bases: Spartan Citizens: Heavy Foot, Armored, Superior, Drilled, Offensive Spear
(2x) BG of eight bases: Spartan Perioikoi: Heavy Foot, Armored, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
(4x) BG of eight bases: Generic Hoplites: Heavy Foot, Armored, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spear
(5x) BG of eight bases: Javelinmen: Light Foot, Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelin/Light Spear

Good? Bad? Nada?

[ethan]

Alright, having added up the points and ensured legality, here is my 800 pts. army:

Inspired Commander
Troop Commander
(2x) BG of six bases: Spartan Citizens: Heavy Foot, Armored, Superior, Drilled, Offensive Spear
(2x) BG of eight bases: Spartan Perioikoi: Heavy Foot, Armored, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
(4x) BG of eight bases: Generic Hoplites: Heavy Foot, Armored, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spear
(5x) BG of eight bases: Javelinmen: Light Foot, Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelin/Light Spear

Good? Bad? Nada?

You need another TC IMO, you might try and get 3x6 drilled guys just to give you a bit more flexibility. 5x8s of javelins is probably excessive.

drop 2 of those gets you 32 AP, 2 more drilled guys to go to 3x6 drilled average leaves 16, drop an undrilled BG completely gets you 72 more, 35 for a TC leaves 53AP.

so you have someting like

IC, 2xTC
2x6 Superior Spartans
3x6 Average Spartans
3x8 Undrilled hoplites
3x8 Javelins.
+53AP, maybe a unit of cheap cav to provide rear support for the for the average hoplites (28AP or so), then upgrade one one of the javelines to slings or something?