Move into melee after routing an enemy.

peterb1201 · Post by **peterb1201** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:16 pm

I've read and re-read the "manual" - which, as an aside, is really, seriously, terribly useless - and I can't explain something I saw.

Callimachus, a 3-flag general in the Marathon scenario, was locked in melee combat with a fragmented group of Median bowmen. I resolved the combat, and the bowmen routed and retreted 3 hexes. Callimachus then advanced forward 2 hexes to engage a DIFFERENT group of Median bowmen, and got the gray "melee combat" arrow.

My question is: why was there no impact combat? More generally, what section of the rules explains this advance?

Thanks.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:55 pm

You can only initiate one combat per turn.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:12 pm

iainmcneil wrote:You can only initiate one combat per turn.

Iain I posted a while ago a whole thread about this

Often times you initiate combat on your turn, rout the target, your unit follows and connects with another enemy, SOMETIMES the red arrow appears and you have to engage again with the SAME unit, all on your turn....
In the above posters example the arrow was greyed but just as often it is red and has too be resolved before end turn button hit.....
I know there were several players that said they never saw this but also many that have... I see it in about every game....

All i can think of its the new enemy unit that is contacted's "state" ie was it already next to another of you units, that determines if a new melee/impact is conducted or the arrow is gery.....

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:15 pm

In the TT rules, which the PC game is based on, if you pursue an enemy that you broke and hit another enemy unit then if its in the impact phase it counts as a new charge and gets resolved immediately. I rarely see the rout and combat a new enemy happen that often but I am thinking this would be the process the PC game is trying to copy. Usually if you rout an enemy and are adjacent to other enemy the grey arrow just rotates to the adjacent enemy and you turn to face and next turn they attack.

peterb1201 · Post by **peterb1201** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:24 pm

The meta-issue I'm raising here is not so much "I'm upset that my troops can only initiate one battle per turn!" (I'm not) but rather that having read the entirety of the help pages I can't find a single line addressing the rule "if you rout the enemy, you will chase, and furthermore might end up fighting someone other than your routed enemy." And even having seen it happen, I don't think I could tell you ahead of time under what circumstances my troops will pursue, and which direction they will go.

Is there any way to learn about the details of that behavior short of (a) buying the tabletop rules or (b) reading this forum?

Reading through that other thread (and crossing the streams...) a "replay" option would make giving examples of behavior that people want to explore (and also demonstrating bugs, when they are found) a lot easier.

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:54 pm

If the victorious unit initiated the combat, it will pursue provided it is not adjacent to another enemy unit. That's generally true, although I've seen occasional differences.

Deeter

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:40 pm

I can't tell you when it will happen either but I have seen it before too.
As for pursuits I find they are occurring less often now. I have seen several cases where I routed and enemy, and would have expected to be pulled out of the line to chase him but my boys just stand there yelling insults to their backs, no enemy about so in the old days they would have gone off chasing.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:26 am

The only time a unit can fight twice if it is in your opponents turn. If more than one unit is adjacent to it, each must attack so it may be attacked twice. If you rout an enemy in teh opponents turn, you may pursue in to a unit that has not yet fought and therfore must fight you immediately.

If you pursue in to someone who has already fought you fight the impact in the next turn.

petergarnett · Post by **petergarnett** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:41 am

What I believe I'm seeing is in my turn I have a BG already in contact with a red arrow. I click on that combat & my BG breaks. The enemy one advances making contact with a different BG of mine (& if it's a LF it also doesn't evade). I now have to resolve that combat as it has a red arrow on it.

Whether that is correct I leave to Iain to decide

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:45 am

As long as it only fought one combat in your turn its fine.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:16 pm

iainmcneil wrote:As long as it only fought one combat in your turn its fine.

Then it is not fine, as Peter's example means a unit "fought twice" during Peters turn

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:38 pm

I think Iain is saying that enemy BGs can fight more than once on your turn, but your own BGs cannot fight more than once on your turn.

In Peter's example, it was the enemy BG that fought twice.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:02 pm

Morbio wrote:I think Iain is saying that enemy BGs can fight more than once on your turn, but your own BGs cannot fight more than once on your turn.

In Peter's example, it was the enemy BG that fought twice.

True, but my own uints have followed routers after, well routing them and then had to melee again on my turn....
Not something you can tak a screen print of really either...

Oh well, no one really seems to mind it, Slitherine is saying it doesnt happen so what can ya do.

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:44 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Morbio wrote:I think Iain is saying that enemy BGs can fight more than once on your turn, but your own BGs cannot fight more than once on your turn.

In Peter's example, it was the enemy BG that fought twice.

True, but my own uints have followed routers after, well routing them and then had to melee again on my turn....
Not something you can tak a screen print of really either...

Oh well, no one really seems to mind it, Slitherine is saying it doesnt happen so what can ya do.

If you see it happen then ask your opponent to screenshot it on the replay and either get them to post it on the forum or to send it to you to post it.

Or maybe don't complete the move (just close and save) and get the devs to look at it?

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:06 pm

Are you sure you fought a combat - I've never seen it and I've fought a lot of games. You could rout them before the combat occured. E.g. they break from a cohesion check for other reasons. I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:28 pm

iainmcneil wrote:Are you sure you fought a combat - I've never seen it and I've fought a lot of games. You could rout them before the combat occured. E.g. they break from a cohesion check for other reasons. I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen

I am sure I have seen it in almost every battle

The worst was when I had a phyrric army with a leader beind the main line, I resolved a red arrow melee with a pike unit(my unit) in the front, it routed and routed thru my leader behind disordering him, the enemy unit followed and contacted my leader and a red arrow came up and i was forced to resolve that one as well before I could hit end turn... Suffice to say the leader faired poorly

It seams like really a non issue and dont even mind the mechanic, but it also seems from the posts it should not be happening so I will make a concerted effort to get screenies before and after and post it in the tech area, cheers!

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:36 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
iainmcneil wrote:Are you sure you fought a combat - I've never seen it and I've fought a lot of games. You could rout them before the combat occured. E.g. they break from a cohesion check for other reasons. I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen
I am sure I have seen it in almost every battle
The worst was when I had a phyrric army with a leader beind the main line, I resolved a red arrow melee with a pike unit(my unit) in the front, it routed and routed thru my leader behind disordering him, the enemy unit followed and contacted my leader and a red arrow came up and i was forced to resolve that one as well before I could hit end turn... Suffice to say the leader faired poorly

It seams like really a non issue and dont even mind the mechanic, but it also seems from the posts it should not be happening so I will make a concerted effort to get screenies before and after and post it in the tech area, cheers!

Yes...this does happen...but...Mouser, it sounds like what is being said above. You only fought once with each of your units. The enemy unit was fought more than once by two or more of your units.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:44 pm

Yes that is true in that example, but i have sean it when my unit in my turn melees chases and has a red arrow a second time......

The worst case of this was the Trigocinterna?? canned scenario... Romans vs Armenia I had a roman cavarly unit on my turn resolve 3 plus melees as it chain routed, chased and rengaged the densly packed armenian horde!

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:54 pm

I'm pretty sure it must have been the inactive side that fought 3 times, but unfortunately unless you can show me a repeatable case we can't do much about it. All the times I've seen it before it is people misunderstanding how it works.

CaptainHuge · Post by **CaptainHuge** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:19 pm

I don't have a repeatable case, but I certainly have seen the same thing happen occasionally in the games I have played. Sometimes when it is your turn and one of your BG's pursues a routing unit, there is a red arrow and you must attack a second time. I have seen the same situation occasionally for the AI, when the AI is attacking. I could never figure out the factors that allow it.