Zven Grosbaf s'en va vérifier si le tranchant de sa hache est supérieur aux massues + dents de requin des chétifs du pacifique sud.
Je souhaite à tous d'excellentes et innombrables parties.
A dans deux ans
Zven
Late Imperial Polynesian contre Varègue
Moderators: philqw78, terrys, hammy, nicofig, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Moderators, Field of Glory Design
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zvengrosbaf
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:55 pm
- Location: Gar et Var
Hawaiian
Territory Types: Agricultural, (other type should have sand dunes, forests, steep hills, sea coast, forests, rock-strewn fields, open areas, but no marshes, swamps, or bogs)
Papa kaua ali'i Heavy Foot Unprotected Superior Drilled - Pikemen 8-12 8-24
Alapa or Pii Pii Heavy Foot Unprotected Elite Drilled - Pikemen 8-12 0-12
Poe kaua Medium Foot Unprotected Superior Undrilled Javelins Swordsmen 6-8 24-40
or Heavy Foot
Poe kaua Medium Foot Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Swordsmen ditto
or Heavy Foot
Reluctant Mob Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins -
Huna lewa Light Foot Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling - 6-8 12-24
Javelins - ditto
For comparison, here is my latest DBMM list for the Hawaiians, with notes.
12. HAWAIIAN 1100 AD - 1785 AD
Tropical. Ag 1. S, Rv, DH, GH, WH, RH, O, E, D, M, G, RF, BUA.
E: 4/11, 4/12, 4/70, 4/71.
C-in-C with Papa Kaua guard - Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 1
Sub-general – Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 0-1
Ally-general – Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 1-2
Alapa and pii pii - Reg Pk (S) @ 5AP *3-7
Papa kaua ali'i- Reg Pk (O) @ 4AP 5-16
Poe kaua – all Irr Bd (I) @ 4AP or all Irr Ax (S) @ 4AP 36-90
Reluctant maka'ainana - Irr Hd (O) @ 1AP 3-12
Huna lewa - Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP or Irr Ps (I) @ 1AP 6-15
Piikoi wielders - Irr Ps (X) @ 6AP 0-1
Waa kaua - Irr Bts (O) @ 2AP [Ax, Bd, Pk] 0-6
Planked war canoe - Irr Bts (S) @ 3AP [Ax, Bd, Pk] 0-1
Heiau for sacrifice and hau with kahuna nui, or hale pai or auroro, or beached canoes - Irr Bge (O) 0-2 per general
Here is given only the Hawaiian aspect of the Polynesian or Melanesian list. Wars within and between islands were common, but allies are not known to have changed sides. Large armies were invariably lead by the ali'i-moi, the island "high king." He would lead from the middle of the line, or from within the noble ali'i in reserve. The martial culture focused on hand-to-hand combat, with slings and javelins usually used at short range. The papa kaua and the elite alapa and pii pii regiments employed the 15' pololu in close formation, and fighting to the last man was expected. Wives not uncommonly fought alongside husbands, some few of note. The mass of the soldiery were commoners in a society organized for war, the poe kaua, employing a variety of weapons - one- and two-handed clubs, slings, javelins, shark-tooth edged daggers, etc. Maka'ainana were those common folk not poe kaua, only on the field because of the threat of having their ears slit. The huna lewa skirmished ahead with javelins and slings, hoping to bring back captives to be sacrificed at the field heiau by kahunas. The hau was a branch held in place as a standard and considered inviolate. Peasant revolts succeeded often enough to be a threat, keeping most ali'i behaving. War canoes were usually of moderate size, but the largest were double-hulled and planked, carrying more than 100 men. Minima marked * apply if any troops so marked are used.
Notes for Phil:
I am not "do or die" about much of this list - they are not Sassanid Persians, after all. This is however my best vaguely informed guess about "Old Hawai'i," and I hope it makes sense.
Your first scream is likely about the Reg C-in-C. He was commonly in the middle of the army, with his small personal guard armed like other ali'i with the pike/pololu. It makes little sense to have him unable to efficiently command the other Reg Pk (scream later ...). Other generals are just better versions of the good quality infantry. Hawaiians were not noted for mid-battle redeployments, so the other generals should be same-nation allies.
Next obscenity: Reg Pk (S). Sources say the ali'i really did maneouver and march in close formation with the pololu, some units (alapa and pii pii) even having matching ahuula feather cloaks. The alapa and pii pii are known on at least one occasion to have fought to the very last man, to have been picked young men from the best families, etc. This is why I rate them as Reg Pk (S). I had to be talked into this on TNE, FYI. Another possibility is to regrade the Pk (S) as Pk (O) and the Pk (O) as Pk (I). That would also fit the record fairly well.
Now we have the Irr Bd (I). There was a real difference in the amount of energy spent training between the nobles and the masses. Despite this, the nobles could be defeated by the common people on occasion. The mass of troops were mainly armed with three weapons: club (1 or 2 handed) or other melee weapon, javelin (thrown or wielded), and sling (short ranges only). It seems slings were common as they provided some range (short) and could be tucked into the belt when melee began. European observers claim this lead to a confused but brutal combat. There is no indication of spontaneous charging. Armies universally avoided terrain, even having a standard order of battle (makawalu) for dispersing to avoid woods and such. For unarmored irregulars, then, this leaves me with Irr Bd (I): initiating combat with missile weapons then closing to melee.
And then of course we have some evidence for commoners who were induced with threats to march off to war. Thus the Hd. Disciplinary measures tended toward the extreme in Old Hawai'i.
Why no Irr Bd (F)? These are impetuous, a behavior which is not attested as far as I have read. The fact that armies avoided bad going; that the poe kaua were armed with a variety of weapons, i.e. clubs, javelins, slings, and so on; and some evidence for throwing things prior to closing for melee leads me to prefer Irr Bd (I). However, many elements of loose order Hawai'ans are already out there as Irr Bd (F). With some evidence that the wings of an army were in looser order than the center or ali'i has convinced me that Irr Ax (S) would also be reasonable.
With a Reg C-in-C, up to one Reg subgeneral, and the rest same-nation allies, the army should be slow and unwieldy unless deployed well. This is my reading of history.
The piikoi is a club head attached to a cord and used to trip opponents. The TNE list encouraged me to include a stand of these for flavor. It is fun, but if you want to just assume this is used by a few people in the ranks that is fine with me - and more historical.
I have extracted relevant text from the sources I could find. Most of these are primary, and I have footnoted everything. The information is in the TNE Files section: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tab ... Hawaiians/ .
As an aside, despite the variety of interesting hand-to-hand weapons used, it appears only skirmishers and warriors with the pololu were grouped by arm. For example, the laau palau or spear club was the size and shape of a halberd or glaive, but seems not to have been brigaded together.
Accepting this list will make a hash of the entire List 4/12 concept of grouping these armies together. My reading indicates a divergence of actual military practice across Melanesia and Polynesia. Given that these islands are widely separated, though in occasional contact, and range in geography from Aotearoa to Tonga to Hawaii, you may want to put out a call for other Melanesian and Polynesian "sub-lists." It may well be the case that the Hawaiians have an unusual degree of accurate documentation available in English.
Here is a good example of why this army needs Reg Pk (*):
“The warriors who were armed with the pololus, now advanced with a considerable degree of order, and a scene of very different exploits commenced; presenting, in comparison to what before had been exhibited, a wonderful degree of improved knowledge in military evolutions. This body of men, composing several ranks, formed in close and regular order, constituted a firm and compact phalanx, which in actual service, I was informed, was not easily to be broken. ... Nearly at the same instant of time they all arose, and, in close columns, met each other by slow advances. This movement they conducted with much order and regularity, frequently shifting their ground, and guarding with great circumspection against the various advantages of their opponents; whilst the inferior bands were supposed to be engaged on each wing with spears and slings. The success of the contest, however, seemed to depend entirely on those with the pololus, who firmly disputed every inch of the ground, by parrying each other's lunges with the greatest dexterity ...”
“The first exhibition appeared to be extremely rude, disorderly, and ineffectual, though much dexterity was certainly shewn ; but from the manner in which the pololus were managed, it would seem that they are capable of sustaining a very heavy assault." - Quote from Vancouver's expedition in Handy, E.S.C., Government and Society, p.38-41, in A.H.C.
Territory Types: Agricultural, (other type should have sand dunes, forests, steep hills, sea coast, forests, rock-strewn fields, open areas, but no marshes, swamps, or bogs)
Papa kaua ali'i Heavy Foot Unprotected Superior Drilled - Pikemen 8-12 8-24
Alapa or Pii Pii Heavy Foot Unprotected Elite Drilled - Pikemen 8-12 0-12
Poe kaua Medium Foot Unprotected Superior Undrilled Javelins Swordsmen 6-8 24-40
or Heavy Foot
Poe kaua Medium Foot Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Swordsmen ditto
or Heavy Foot
Reluctant Mob Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins -
Huna lewa Light Foot Unprotected Average Undrilled Sling - 6-8 12-24
Javelins - ditto
For comparison, here is my latest DBMM list for the Hawaiians, with notes.
12. HAWAIIAN 1100 AD - 1785 AD
Tropical. Ag 1. S, Rv, DH, GH, WH, RH, O, E, D, M, G, RF, BUA.
E: 4/11, 4/12, 4/70, 4/71.
C-in-C with Papa Kaua guard - Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 1
Sub-general – Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 0-1
Ally-general – Reg Pk (S) @ 25AP 1-2
Alapa and pii pii - Reg Pk (S) @ 5AP *3-7
Papa kaua ali'i- Reg Pk (O) @ 4AP 5-16
Poe kaua – all Irr Bd (I) @ 4AP or all Irr Ax (S) @ 4AP 36-90
Reluctant maka'ainana - Irr Hd (O) @ 1AP 3-12
Huna lewa - Irr Ps (O) @ 2AP or Irr Ps (I) @ 1AP 6-15
Piikoi wielders - Irr Ps (X) @ 6AP 0-1
Waa kaua - Irr Bts (O) @ 2AP [Ax, Bd, Pk] 0-6
Planked war canoe - Irr Bts (S) @ 3AP [Ax, Bd, Pk] 0-1
Heiau for sacrifice and hau with kahuna nui, or hale pai or auroro, or beached canoes - Irr Bge (O) 0-2 per general
Here is given only the Hawaiian aspect of the Polynesian or Melanesian list. Wars within and between islands were common, but allies are not known to have changed sides. Large armies were invariably lead by the ali'i-moi, the island "high king." He would lead from the middle of the line, or from within the noble ali'i in reserve. The martial culture focused on hand-to-hand combat, with slings and javelins usually used at short range. The papa kaua and the elite alapa and pii pii regiments employed the 15' pololu in close formation, and fighting to the last man was expected. Wives not uncommonly fought alongside husbands, some few of note. The mass of the soldiery were commoners in a society organized for war, the poe kaua, employing a variety of weapons - one- and two-handed clubs, slings, javelins, shark-tooth edged daggers, etc. Maka'ainana were those common folk not poe kaua, only on the field because of the threat of having their ears slit. The huna lewa skirmished ahead with javelins and slings, hoping to bring back captives to be sacrificed at the field heiau by kahunas. The hau was a branch held in place as a standard and considered inviolate. Peasant revolts succeeded often enough to be a threat, keeping most ali'i behaving. War canoes were usually of moderate size, but the largest were double-hulled and planked, carrying more than 100 men. Minima marked * apply if any troops so marked are used.
Notes for Phil:
I am not "do or die" about much of this list - they are not Sassanid Persians, after all. This is however my best vaguely informed guess about "Old Hawai'i," and I hope it makes sense.
Your first scream is likely about the Reg C-in-C. He was commonly in the middle of the army, with his small personal guard armed like other ali'i with the pike/pololu. It makes little sense to have him unable to efficiently command the other Reg Pk (scream later ...). Other generals are just better versions of the good quality infantry. Hawaiians were not noted for mid-battle redeployments, so the other generals should be same-nation allies.
Next obscenity: Reg Pk (S). Sources say the ali'i really did maneouver and march in close formation with the pololu, some units (alapa and pii pii) even having matching ahuula feather cloaks. The alapa and pii pii are known on at least one occasion to have fought to the very last man, to have been picked young men from the best families, etc. This is why I rate them as Reg Pk (S). I had to be talked into this on TNE, FYI. Another possibility is to regrade the Pk (S) as Pk (O) and the Pk (O) as Pk (I). That would also fit the record fairly well.
Now we have the Irr Bd (I). There was a real difference in the amount of energy spent training between the nobles and the masses. Despite this, the nobles could be defeated by the common people on occasion. The mass of troops were mainly armed with three weapons: club (1 or 2 handed) or other melee weapon, javelin (thrown or wielded), and sling (short ranges only). It seems slings were common as they provided some range (short) and could be tucked into the belt when melee began. European observers claim this lead to a confused but brutal combat. There is no indication of spontaneous charging. Armies universally avoided terrain, even having a standard order of battle (makawalu) for dispersing to avoid woods and such. For unarmored irregulars, then, this leaves me with Irr Bd (I): initiating combat with missile weapons then closing to melee.
And then of course we have some evidence for commoners who were induced with threats to march off to war. Thus the Hd. Disciplinary measures tended toward the extreme in Old Hawai'i.
Why no Irr Bd (F)? These are impetuous, a behavior which is not attested as far as I have read. The fact that armies avoided bad going; that the poe kaua were armed with a variety of weapons, i.e. clubs, javelins, slings, and so on; and some evidence for throwing things prior to closing for melee leads me to prefer Irr Bd (I). However, many elements of loose order Hawai'ans are already out there as Irr Bd (F). With some evidence that the wings of an army were in looser order than the center or ali'i has convinced me that Irr Ax (S) would also be reasonable.
With a Reg C-in-C, up to one Reg subgeneral, and the rest same-nation allies, the army should be slow and unwieldy unless deployed well. This is my reading of history.
The piikoi is a club head attached to a cord and used to trip opponents. The TNE list encouraged me to include a stand of these for flavor. It is fun, but if you want to just assume this is used by a few people in the ranks that is fine with me - and more historical.
I have extracted relevant text from the sources I could find. Most of these are primary, and I have footnoted everything. The information is in the TNE Files section: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tab ... Hawaiians/ .
As an aside, despite the variety of interesting hand-to-hand weapons used, it appears only skirmishers and warriors with the pololu were grouped by arm. For example, the laau palau or spear club was the size and shape of a halberd or glaive, but seems not to have been brigaded together.
Accepting this list will make a hash of the entire List 4/12 concept of grouping these armies together. My reading indicates a divergence of actual military practice across Melanesia and Polynesia. Given that these islands are widely separated, though in occasional contact, and range in geography from Aotearoa to Tonga to Hawaii, you may want to put out a call for other Melanesian and Polynesian "sub-lists." It may well be the case that the Hawaiians have an unusual degree of accurate documentation available in English.
Here is a good example of why this army needs Reg Pk (*):
“The warriors who were armed with the pololus, now advanced with a considerable degree of order, and a scene of very different exploits commenced; presenting, in comparison to what before had been exhibited, a wonderful degree of improved knowledge in military evolutions. This body of men, composing several ranks, formed in close and regular order, constituted a firm and compact phalanx, which in actual service, I was informed, was not easily to be broken. ... Nearly at the same instant of time they all arose, and, in close columns, met each other by slow advances. This movement they conducted with much order and regularity, frequently shifting their ground, and guarding with great circumspection against the various advantages of their opponents; whilst the inferior bands were supposed to be engaged on each wing with spears and slings. The success of the contest, however, seemed to depend entirely on those with the pololus, who firmly disputed every inch of the ground, by parrying each other's lunges with the greatest dexterity ...”
“The first exhibition appeared to be extremely rude, disorderly, and ineffectual, though much dexterity was certainly shewn ; but from the manner in which the pololus were managed, it would seem that they are capable of sustaining a very heavy assault." - Quote from Vancouver's expedition in Handy, E.S.C., Government and Society, p.38-41, in A.H.C.