Ran these out pre-Xmas.
Given the very limited Battle Magic employed in LoR books - No rules needed for these
Additional Unit Factor - Fear - Cohesion Test reqd after Impact fought with any unit causing Fear at -1.
So Trolls, The Necromancer of Dul Goldur, Undead etc
Trolls were deemed as elephants but could be in units of 1.
Lists
GOOD
Aragorn IC
Rohan Cavalry Ave Undrilled Armoured Bow Swordsmen
Rohan Heavy Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured 2/3rds Swordsmen 1/3rd Bow
2x Grey Company Med Foot Undrilled Elite Longbow Swordsmen
Gimli Allied FC
3x Dwarves Heavy Foot Superior Drilled Heavy Armour Jls (Throwing Axe) Swordsmen
Legolas Allied FC
2x Galadhrim Archers Med Foot Elite Drilled Protected Longbow Swordsmen
Woodelf Warband Med Foot Elite Drilled Unprotected Longbow Heavy weapon Skilled Swordsmen
King of the Dead Allied TC
2x Undead Med Foot Elite Undrilled Armoured Impact Foot Swordsmen Fear
EVIL
The Necromancer of Dul Goldur IC Fear
Uruk Hai Heavy Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured Pike
3x Uruk Hai Scouts Med Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured 2/3rds Impact Foot Swordsmen 1/3rd Bow
Warg Riders Cavarly Ave Undrilled Bow Swordsmen Fear (not sure of this classification)
Burador the Troll Allied TC Fear
2x Troll Ave Elephant Fear
2x Goblin Warband Med Foot Protected Undrilled Poor 1/2 Swordsmen 1/2 Bow
Suladan the Serpent Lord Allied FC
2x Heavy Foot Ave Protected Drilled 1/2 Offensive Spear 1/2 Lt Bow
Orc Allied TC
3x Med Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured Impact Foot Swordsmen
Med Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured Heavy Weapon
Med Foot Ave Undrilled Armoured 2/3rds Impact Foot Swordsmen 1/3rd Bow
Most of the terrain was on the flanks and had little part in the story.
However a largish wood was in the centre of the Evil side of the table (more later)
Evil bemoaned his lack of quality troops (for most of the battle to be honest)
Good based their plan on a strong dwarven center supported by the shooters on the flanks with Rohan and Undead contributing where they thought most appropriate.
In short the battle was almost a disaster for Aragorn, the Undead died, as did the Elves and Grey Company (both suffered from rubbish shooting, but then fought gallantly in combat)
The dwarves were out manouvered by the Goblins Trolls and Haradrim due mainly to what was an over inflated sense of superioriity and getting too close to said large wood.
They routed following three rounds of combat. (Including the inglorius death of Gimli)
Aragorn and the Rohan Cavalry escaped the massacre to fight another day.
Closely followed by Legolas and the Woodelves.
So how come it was only almost a disaster you may be asking?
Well - The Necromancer was dealt a mortal (or immortal) blow by the Woodelves and disipated into the ether)
A tactical victory for Evil but a Strategic Victory for Good
Lord of the Rings
Moderators: terrys, Slitherine Core
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bertalucci
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I expect Fear made the difference.
You have some unusual classifications for LOTR.
E.g., Riders of Rohan are usually thought to be shock cavalry based on their history and battle performance.
Heavy Weapon and Skiled Swordsmen are incompatible. There are different ways to represent the Evil forces, with different effects - Fear for Trolls etc. probably works (unless it was too powerful).
You have some unusual classifications for LOTR.
E.g., Riders of Rohan are usually thought to be shock cavalry based on their history and battle performance.
Heavy Weapon and Skiled Swordsmen are incompatible. There are different ways to represent the Evil forces, with different effects - Fear for Trolls etc. probably works (unless it was too powerful).
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bertalucci
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Point accepted re Rohan Cav but they did little in the battle other than run away so that was not the cause of defeat.
They should have been used more productively but were out of position from turn 1.
Still not sure re Warg's at least the Fear bonus made them anxious for close combat.
However Fear as and of itself did not cause units to rout, the Forces of Evil ground out the result by weight of numbers and the aforementioned tactical errors with the Dwarves (who would have benefited loads from dumping the throwing axe and swordsmen in favour of 2 Handed Axe) and staying well away from the woods. Probably should have deployed the Elves to take the woods and supported them on either flank with Aragorn and the Dwarves!
Re Elves trying to emulate 1 handed/2 handed use of elven swords as an after thought should have just been one or the other.
All players enjoyed the game and it did create a lot of discussion afterwards.
The more I think about it and write it up I have to agree that I made a right royal mess of deployment.
They should have been used more productively but were out of position from turn 1.
Still not sure re Warg's at least the Fear bonus made them anxious for close combat.
However Fear as and of itself did not cause units to rout, the Forces of Evil ground out the result by weight of numbers and the aforementioned tactical errors with the Dwarves (who would have benefited loads from dumping the throwing axe and swordsmen in favour of 2 Handed Axe) and staying well away from the woods. Probably should have deployed the Elves to take the woods and supported them on either flank with Aragorn and the Dwarves!
Re Elves trying to emulate 1 handed/2 handed use of elven swords as an after thought should have just been one or the other.
All players enjoyed the game and it did create a lot of discussion afterwards.
The more I think about it and write it up I have to agree that I made a right royal mess of deployment.
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zellak
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Re: Lord of the Rings
So were you making troops fighting against "Fear causing troops" take a cohesion test even if they won the combat ?bertalucci wrote: Additional Unit Factor - Fear - Cohesion Test reqd after Impact fought with any unit causing Fear at -1.
Come and Trade your D&D miniatures at ukroleplayers.com
I like the way you modelled the psicollogy using an inner mechanism of FoG.
Making any unit test with a -1 after impact agaist fear causing enemies may be too much and too little: too much effect if the testing unit won the round of combat an too little if the fear causing unit wins in subsequent combat phases
Making any unit test with a -1 after impact agaist fear causing enemies may be too much and too little: too much effect if the testing unit won the round of combat an too little if the fear causing unit wins in subsequent combat phases
A subtler effect would be to -1 only if they lose the fight (like the special modifiers for losing for other troops), or lower their quality one step for one or both rerolls on the CT if they have to test, or reduce their quality for Impact combat rolls to represent the initial impairment. A different effect would be to treat the feared troops within a base width as disordered in combat (like Elephants vs horse), which itself can be a potent effect on some troop types.
The minimal magic mod on the Yahoo FOG Fantasy forum has the effect of a caster to be to declare beforehand a reroll for the lowest die that is not rerolled in a throw of dice for combat or CT or CMT, or block the enemy doing so. Inspired by HOTT's light approach to magic and the nature of battle magic in Middle Earth, this one-per-turn spell is not overpowering but can have a significant impact in the battle if used judiciously.
Other magic rules can go up from that to direct damage spells and an increasing variety of spells, but as magic increases to be more decisive then the detailed FOG military combat rules become marginalized and increasingly overhead in the task of getting troops into positions where magic can be used or avoided.
The minimal magic mod on the Yahoo FOG Fantasy forum has the effect of a caster to be to declare beforehand a reroll for the lowest die that is not rerolled in a throw of dice for combat or CT or CMT, or block the enemy doing so. Inspired by HOTT's light approach to magic and the nature of battle magic in Middle Earth, this one-per-turn spell is not overpowering but can have a significant impact in the battle if used judiciously.
Other magic rules can go up from that to direct damage spells and an increasing variety of spells, but as magic increases to be more decisive then the detailed FOG military combat rules become marginalized and increasingly overhead in the task of getting troops into positions where magic can be used or avoided.
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bertalucci
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I don't suppose there is any way to post the army lists we have made on the FoG Fantasy Yahoo Group here. I've spent two (almost three) years editing the LotR lists there, and managed to come up with something that reflects both Film and Books (I need to finish the notes and commentary so that players will know which options are for which source: Book or Films)
I struggled with those at the beginning due to not understanding some basic FoG mechanisms and conventions, but after having played in more often, I found that I had really overpowered the lists and began to carve them down. I think that is a mistake that is common in fantasy games, as the hyperbole of authors tends to get in the way of the reality of things - Fortunately, JRRT left a wealth of information about his world, even if most of it is still not published... Anyway, the several of the finalized lists for LotR need to be rescued from my old Hard Disk, as it crashed before I could upload them. Most of the alterations were doing away with troops that were silly GW additions (like Dol Amroth Pikemen). There were men-at-arms from Dol Amroth, but odds are that they were not pikemen. They were probably just spearmen, or, as Tolkien had a thing for the axe, they may have been mixed spear, sword and axe... which would make them either light spear or plain swordsmen (or, maybe nothing special at all for a close combat ability)...
Enough commentary...
Matthew Bailey
I struggled with those at the beginning due to not understanding some basic FoG mechanisms and conventions, but after having played in more often, I found that I had really overpowered the lists and began to carve them down. I think that is a mistake that is common in fantasy games, as the hyperbole of authors tends to get in the way of the reality of things - Fortunately, JRRT left a wealth of information about his world, even if most of it is still not published... Anyway, the several of the finalized lists for LotR need to be rescued from my old Hard Disk, as it crashed before I could upload them. Most of the alterations were doing away with troops that were silly GW additions (like Dol Amroth Pikemen). There were men-at-arms from Dol Amroth, but odds are that they were not pikemen. They were probably just spearmen, or, as Tolkien had a thing for the axe, they may have been mixed spear, sword and axe... which would make them either light spear or plain swordsmen (or, maybe nothing special at all for a close combat ability)...
Enough commentary...
Matthew Bailey
None of the troops in the Books ever reacted to the Wargs as if they feared them... If anything, the Rohirrim, who were the only described troops to have fought against Wargs, were anything but frightened in their reaction to the Wargs (there are other sources that describe Dale/Laketown as being under attack by Wargs as well, during the War of the Ring. It seems that in all situations where they appeared, no particular fear of them was shown, any more than would normally be shown towards any of the Goblin/Orc troops).bertalucci wrote:Sorry for the late response - I've been digging a lot of snow!
The -1 for fear only applied if you lost the impact.
Warg Riders - what's your thoughts Lsp Swordsmen Fear?
Warg Riders would either be:
Poor/Average, Protected/Unprotected, Undrilled, Bow, Light Spear or Swordsmen (or nothing), Light Horse or Cavalry...
I tend to think they would be Light Horse more than Cavalry, as they were quick and maneuverable, and were not massed (COULD NOT BE MASSED) as closely as Cavalry. They would probably be Swordsmen, if anything, due to JRRT describing them as slashing at the bellies of the horses as they ran by, running sometimes between the horses legs (Wargs were not really the Andrewsarchus Mongoliensis which Peter Jackson based his Wargs upon (the Museum in Wellington contains a full sized replica of an Andrewsarchus, which PJ mentions as his inspiration for the Wargs in the film). Wargs were really large wolves, which could be rode by Orcs (which were smaller than men, for the most part)... So, Wargs are not going to cause the sort of fear that the PJ and GW Wargs seem to inspire.
Matthew Bailey
Matthew's list are based on deep knowledge regarding the source materials and well worth looking at for anyone with a serious interest in FOG and Middle Earth.
This is the direct link to that folder.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FoG ... G%20Lists/
Other materials and many of the message threads are also useful.
This is the direct link to that folder.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FoG ... G%20Lists/
Other materials and many of the message threads are also useful.
I've also been chopping out a lot of the purely GW stuff... When I first started the lists, I thought that might be an OK idea to include them, but now, I find that there are sufficient figures available to do the troops more accurately (and not need to fall back on the GW purely imaginary troops, such as giving the men-at-arms of Dol Amroth Pikes... They would be typical spearmen, or, if going with a later medieval feel, they might be billmen).MikeK wrote:Matthew's list are based on deep knowledge regarding the source materials and well worth looking at for anyone with a serious interest in FOG and Middle Earth.
This is the direct link to that folder.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FoG ... G%20Lists/
Other materials and many of the message threads are also useful.
I also had not quite finished reading The History of Middle Earth when I began those lists, and what I found in there allowed me to fill out more appropriate lists for nations or groups for which there was not much known... Such as that Khand contains two groups of people, one indigenous (Variags), and the other a migrant Settlers (Wainrider offshoots).
Since I only have one class this summer (and maybe not even that if my financial aid doesn't get taken care of), then I am going to be spending a lot of time getting the basic army lists painted up for at least the Rohirrim, Isengard, and hopefully Gondor (I still have some molds to make for the Levy of the Fief's Morthond Vale Archers and generic Spearmen, such as the troops from Andras and the hills of Anfalas - basically head swaps and putting shields on some of the rangers with spears. I'd really like to do some head swaps with the Perry Crusader Foot knights (both armored and unarmored) and shield swaps to put a more Gondorin looking shield in their left hands... anyway, that will have to wait...)
I am determined to be able to put on a LotR FoG (And Hoplon, since it is still my favorite system, with FoG coming in a REALLY close second) at Historicon next year (not going this year so that I can save money for next)...
Matthew Bailey