Fragmented BGs retiring away from enemy

[Petefloro]

On page 114 "Cohesion Levels & Effects" for fragmented troops 3rd bullet,it says"BGs can make a simple move to retire away from all enemy within 12 MUs but must CMT for any other move"
So, if a fragmented undrilled cav BG is with in 12 MUs of enemy to it's front and wants to retire away, the only simple move it can make is a 180 turn (but no movement after because thats impossible). Can it then retire away in it's next turn? Or because it can't actually retire any further away(only turn 180 away from enemy) does it have to take a CMT just to turn?
Also does "all enemy" include enemy broken troops and camps
Thanks for any replies in advance and apologies if this has been covered before.

[hammy]

It would need the CMT to turn as while turning is simple it is as you correctly surmised not 'retireing'

If there was a commander with the BG you could take a CMT to turn then make a second move away from the enemy with no CMT

All enemy means all enemy not just all enemy that might actually attack you.

[hammy]

It seems that I play the retiring part of this rule differently to other people.

I have always played that as long as the move ends further from all enemy that it started then it is fine and a simple move.

In a game last night my opponent argued that a move I made to pull a fragmented BG of LH out of trouble needed a CMT because the initial part of the move went closer to one enemy BG despite ending fruther from that BG than it started and further from all other enemy BGs.

[Petefloro]

I've played it your way also Hammy - the way it quite clearly states in the rules on page 114. Where does it mention not going closer to enemy whilst retiring away - have I missed something again? LH can turn 180 and move away because that's a simple move for them. Surely your opponent is not suggesting that by turning 180 your LH are moving closer to the enemy at some point.

[hammy]

There was another BG to the flank of and behind my LH

Code: Select all

EEE

LL

     OOO

E are the enemy, L are my light horse and O are the other enemy.

If the light horse turn 180 then they will as they start to move end up closer to O even though they finish firther from O than they started.

[Petefloro]

Code:
EEE

LL

OOO

Is that what actually happened? Couldn't you have wheeled away slightly after the turn?Or turned 90 then move?
Any way, I still think that's OK because the LH have retired and are further away from enemy than at the start of their move and there is no mention in the rules about moving closer to enemy whilst moving further away.

With respect to your opponent, it's another case of some one trying to embellish the rules with their opinion and interpretation - not what rules actually say. But that's just my opinion.

[philqw78]

Is that what actually happened? Couldn't you have wheeled away slightly after the turn?Or turned 90 then move?
Any way, I still think that's OK because the LH have retired and are further away from enemy than at the start of their move and there is no mention in the rules about moving closer to enemy whilst moving further away.

With respect to your opponent, it's another case of some one trying to embellish the rules with their opinion and interpretation - not what rules actually say. But that's just my opinion.

And my opinion and interpretation is opposed to yours. And I wasn't the opponent. But I did hear Hammy throwing his weight around during the game. "Well I'm umpiring at such and such a competition so thats what I'd say, blah blah"

Generally if people are arguing about this LH are just proving themselves unrealistically squirmy again.

Since I'm at work what does the rule say exactly?

[Petefloro]

[

And my opinion and interpretation is opposed to yours. And I wasn't the opponent. But I did hear Hammy throwing his weight around during the game. "Well I'm umpiring at such and such a competition so thats what I'd say, blah blah"

Generally if people are arguing about this LH are just proving themselves unrealistically squirmy again.

Since I'm at work what does the rule say exactly?

OK, wind your neck in a bit mate

How can you say your opinion and interpretation is opposed to mine when you're asking what the rule actually says?

It says on page 114 in the Cohesion Level Table : "Battle group can make a simple move to retire away from all enemy with in 12MUs but must CMT for any other move". That's all it says.

[hammy]

Generally if people are arguing about this LH are just proving themselves unrealistically squirmy again.

Err, the squirmy LH turned 180 and ran straight back their full move. How is that squirmy? The BG the briefly got closer to in their retirement was I think actually in melee anyway.

I couldn't turn and wheel because some of my knights were in the way

[dave_r]

Battle group can make a simple move to retire away from all enemy with in 12MUs

And just how exactly do you retire away from all enemy when you initially move towards them?

A CMT is required for this move.

[philqw78]

It says on page 114 in the Cohesion Level Table : "Battle group can make a simple move to retire away from all enemy with in 12MUs but must CMT for any other move". That's all it says.

But Hammy's move included some movement towards enemy. It therefore did not retire away from all enemy, even though it ended its move further away.

How can you say your opinion and interpretation is opposed to mine when you're asking what the rule actually says?

I asked because I do not want to misquote the rule. Not having access to my book that would be all to easy.

[Cerberias]

Surely because it ends up further away its counted as retire? You're still retiring using your entire move, if i move closer then move further away im still further away at the end, so i'm retiring?

[Petefloro]

And just how exactly do you retire away from all enemy when you initially move towards them?

A CMT is required for this move.

If you retire and end up further away from all enemy - fine. A CMT is required to do anything other than a simple move."Any other move"is referring to the other moves on the Simple&Complex Moves table on page 42 isn't it? So moving closer to enemy temporarily while retiring does not require a test because it's not on the table and there's no mention of not moving closer to enemy whilst retiring to be further away at the end of the move in the rule on page 114.

I'm happy with that - but if the rules writers say other wise - I stand corrected.

[dave_r]

If you retire and end up further away from all enemy - fine. A CMT is required to do anything other than a simple move."Any other move"is referring to the other moves on the Simple&Complex Moves table on page 42 isn't it? So moving closer to enemy temporarily while retiring does not require a test because it's not on the table and there's no mention of not moving closer to enemy whilst retiring to be further away at the end of the move in the rule on page 114.

Not true. To retire you must move away from enemy, during the first half of the move you aren't doing that - the end position is irrelevant. The rule book doesn't state anything about starting and ending positions.

Read what the rule states "can make a simple move to retire away from all enemy", look up the definition of retire "To fall back or retreat". Because you are actively moving towards an enemy BG then this cannot be a retire. Nowhere in the rulebook does it mention anything about starting and ending positions - because at some point during the simple move you are closer to an enemy BG this is not a retire.

I'm happy with that - but if the rules writers say other wise - I stand corrected.

So what you are saying is that any further discussion is pointless because you have already decided you are right?

[Cerberias]

But surely it's the end point that's relevant, you're not able to do anything in the middle of your move.. you can't move forward shoot and then run away for example, i'm assuming in this situation you're only going forward because its the easiest way to get away (turn 90 or wheel or something).. in which case surely it still counts as a retire? Just because the rules can't account for every little bit of micromanagement between bases getting larger one way when they turn 90 degrees or moving slightly closer with a wheel because of bases sizes.. surely the intent would be that a retire would be relevant to start and end positions?

[hammy]

Dave & Phil, it does rather depend on the definition of retire

What about this:

Code: Select all

AAA111CCC

   BBB

or this:

Code: Select all

AAA   CCC
   111
   BBB

If A, B & C are enemy and 1 is a fragmented BG of light troops, can it turn 180 and move away as a simple move? By your argument then it can't because it isn't getting further away from all enemy at every point in its move.

For that matter when it turns 180 it is not at that point getting further away either.

You seem to be defining retire as "move in such a way that at every point within the move your BG is further from all enemy than it was at the immediately preceding point of the move" mine is ends up further away from all enemy than it started.

[philqw78]

so then this would be quite alright for a fragmented battle group moving from position 1 to position 2 past enemy because it ends further away?

[hammy]

so then this would be quite alright for a fragmented battle group moving from position 1 to position 2 past enemy because it ends further away?

The way I read that rule then yes.

[philqw78]

Code: Select all

AAA111CCC

   BBB

or this:

Code: Select all

AAA   CCC
   111
   BBB

If A, B & C are enemy and 1 is a fragmented BG of light troops, can it turn 180 and move away as a simple move? By your argument then it can't because it isn't getting further away from all enemy at every point in its move.

For that matter when it turns 180 it is not at that point getting further away either.

You seem to be defining retire as "move in such a way that at every point within the move your BG is further from all enemy than it was at the immediately preceding point of the move" mine is ends up further away from all enemy than it started.

Assuming these are start positions before turn. It would have to CMT. My god, its surrounded. But should just be able to go on moving as normal. I think not. Not unless at every point in its move it gets further form enemy. Your second example is even more ridiculous as the LF can turn 180 and pass between two enemy BG.
Its just as ridiculous if the "1" is moving up.

[Petefloro]

[So what you are saying is that any further discussion is pointless because you have already decided you are right?]

No. I didn't say that.That's how you interpreted it. I may be wrong.But I'd prefer an author to tell me that,thanks.