Shifting, when it can be done

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon May 24, 2010 7:29 am

From the requests for FAQ thread Jilu asked for "All circumstances when one can shift ..."

Shifts are covered on the following pages

P45 (shifts in an advance)

P48 (shifts forced by friends interpenetrating another BG)

P67 (shifts in evades and routs which use the same rules)

P70 (conforming to the enemy)

I can't off hand think of any more shift situations.

Are any of these rules unclear?

Jilu · Post by **Jilu** » Mon May 24, 2010 9:49 am

non but might be good to have them on one page...

but thx!

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:38 pm

I know this is a late post.

Also, page 76 (shifting into melee)

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:12 pm

Hi,
I would like to have some clarification about the shifting during an advance of a battle line
for exemple:
a battle line with a BG of HF and a BG of MF move together straight ahead far away of 6 MU of any enemy, can they shift or not ? because in rules section on the shifting " if all the bases move the full distance...." , in the case above the MF bases don't do the full distance;

in another case a mixed BG of HF " heavy weapon" and MF "crossbows"could not be able to shift at all ?

thefrenchjester " silly questions specialist"

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:59 pm

thefrenchjester wrote:Hi,
I would like to have some clarification about the shifting during an advance of a battle line
for exemple:
a battle line with a BG of HF and a BG of MF move together straight ahead far away of 6 MU of any enemy, can they shift or not ? because in rules section on the shifting " if all the bases move the full distance...." , in the case above the MF bases don't do the full distance;

in another case a mixed BG of HF " heavy weapon" and MF "crossbows"could not be able to shift at all ?

thefrenchjester " silly questions specialist"

Look in the General Movement Section (second page i think):

Battle groups with mixed troop-types have the move distance of the slower type.
Battle lines have the move distance of their slowest battle group.

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:55 pm

Hi Graham,

thanks a lot for your interest in my question, in fact that's how we played it since the beginning everywhere in France, but the question arose with a new player who asked us about the question I put on the Forum above;

I explained the problem without my idea on it to be the more neutral as possible;

that's why it could have been impossible to do an advance and a shift with a mixed BG;

Best Regards

Gilles " the unmasked frenchjester"

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:29 am

grahambriggs wrote:
thefrenchjester wrote:Hi,
I would like to have some clarification about the shifting during an advance of a battle line
for exemple:
a battle line with a BG of HF and a BG of MF move together straight ahead far away of 6 MU of any enemy, can they shift or not ? because in rules section on the shifting " if all the bases move the full distance...." , in the case above the MF bases don't do the full distance;

in another case a mixed BG of HF " heavy weapon" and MF "crossbows"could not be able to shift at all ?

thefrenchjester " silly questions specialist"
Look in the General Movement Section (second page i think):

Battle groups with mixed troop-types have the move distance of the slower type.
Battle lines have the move distance of their slowest battle group.

p. 41 left hand column
2nd bullet for mixed battle groups
3rd bullet for battle lines

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:08 pm

dear frenchjester but I found this in an old post

"Full distance for mixed BGs is the speed of the slowest (with regard the terrain it is in) and that mxed BGs therefore qualify for shiftint."

So what is the right answer..can or cannot a battleline composed of different units( HF and MF or CV and CT ) shift if it moves a the speed of the slowest unit ?

pg 45 : says if all bases move the full distance straight forward

The maximum move distance of a battle line is that of the slowest unit ...so what is the right answer ? may a mixed battleline shift or not even if one of the units could not move his own personnal full move ..

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:55 pm

Since the maximum full move for each is the speed of the slowest, the answer would be yes.

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:03 pm

"would be" but rhe referees did not agree so the answer from a conceptor or moderator of the rules is required . Once Hammy told me it was as you said , but no written answer so for the french referees the answer is NO . For the belgian referee it is yes . So now for official referees or conceptor what is the answer ?

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:19 am

Hi Jacques,

mine is yes since the beginning but the question was asked at the club by a new player who cut the hairs in four( don't know if it the same meaning in english), so if we could have an answer from the conceptors, it could be cool, and our new fly f ..cker will stop to shell each phrasing of the rules;-))

Best regards

thefrenchjester "unofficial French umpire"

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:33 am

so to make it short :

Mixed BG : can they shift as the move at the rate of the slowest unit type
Mixed battlelines : can they shift as they move at the rate of the slowest unit

An official answer please

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:41 pm

I don't see why you are beating this to death. A mixed BG or a battle line consisting of BGs with different movement rates are constrained by the speed of the slowest component of each. Therefore a full move for either is the distance allowed to the slowest component of the whole. It's in the rules. It's clear. The rule was specifically written to address the very question you are proposing. An advance by a BG or battleline is a single action. It is not several actions done together. So you can't have a single move with multiple move rates. Only one applies, that which is the least. This applies even when a portion of the bases moving would have the ability to move further if moving alone. An oft overlooked example is when a move takes a portion of the bases into slowing terrain. Even if the bases are not of a type affected by the terrain, if the moving BG or BL has troops that would be slowed in the terrain the rate for the entire moving body is reduced.

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:06 pm

I asked because some referees are not in agreement with taht . they say that a battleline cannot shift if one of the unit cannot move his own full move . So in a mixed battle line of MF and HF , they refuse the shifting of the battle line on the basis that the MF did ot move full move ...

Only something written by Hammy, RBS ,...might convince them

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:12 pm

They'd believe Hammy? Might as well ask Ruddock

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:48 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:They'd believe Hammy? Might as well ask Ruddock

Why don't you answer the question instead of being faceatious Nik, you are one of the author team now. And being shitty is my job anyway

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:48 am

philqw78 wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:They'd believe Hammy? Might as well ask Ruddock
Why don't you answer the question instead of being faceatious Nik, you are one of the author team now.

And pass up a chance of getting a dig in at Hammy and Ruddock - never.

However, since you asked, the answer is, obviously, what gozerius posted (with the possible exception of the terrain thing he mentioned as I don't have the rules with me to check that).

I can only assume any confusion has resulted from the translation from English

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:16 am

Hi Nick,

thanks for your answer, there was no confusion, only a new french player who came at his second tournament and he tried to shell the rules unduly, last tournament I umpired I needed to come at his table and intervene so many times to stop him that I explained to him if he continues I will take a seat and stay at the table, each time he was wrong( afterall I was the umpire

);
he was worse at his first one:-(
I hope he will not come back at another tournament with this state of mind otherwise I will throw him out for " Bad spirit "

Best regards

thefrenchjester " for friendly games with friendly players"

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:58 pm

Hy Gilles and may I come back with my unlucky dice

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:07 pm

(with the possible exception of the terrain thing he mentioned as I don't have the rules with me to check that).

Page 41, 2nd column. gozerius has it right. Quoting the rules: "BGs with mixed troop types use the shortest move distance that would apply to any base in the BG, even if that base is clear of the terrain." Then, it even gives an example.

Glad he mentioned it cause I'd forgotten that point.