GS and Antwerp

[TotalerKrieg]

I have a question for the GS development team.

For Overlord, did you guys ever consider giving the Western Allies supply level 5 only when Antwerp is taken and leaving maximum supply level 3 until this event? This would correlate to the historical situation of the US and GB having supply issues until the port was taken. Let's face it, taking Paris from the Germans was a moral booster but to my knowledge didn't help with increasing supply to troops.

Thanks for releasing the GS mod! I think its the best WWII war game I ever played.

[Plaid]

Well, but according to this model axis will have supply advantage during the France 44 campaign, and this is even more unhistorical, in late war axis had supply problems sort of everywhere. But i don't think all this should be modelled with supply system, manpower finely represents axis troops degradation.

[TotalerKrieg]

Plaid,
I agree that Axis had supply problems during the Overlord period of time as well. I think the reasons for this are also part of the game as it stands currently. For example, the western allies can build strategic bombers like what happened in WWII and reduce the German infrastructure to ruins (Germans will have low production and won't be able to replace losses). Similarly, oil production can also be stopped strategic bombers and force the Axis to run out of oil. But the converse is not true in that the Axis can't keep the Western Allies at low supply in France after Paris falls. As a result, I think it is worth considering changing the game as I suggested above to simulate the difficulties the Allies faced in France with supply.

[ncali]

Usually, the Allies can't take Paris without having a good hold on the coast - so you can assume they have captured some decent ports by that point. And Paris was a major railway hub for France, which makes it an important link in the supply chain. So I think Paris works all right for supply purposes, although Antwerp might also be a reasonable choice.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Antwerp and some other ports should have a higher supply value than other ports. Capturing Antwerp was vital for the Allies to get supplies to the continent to support an offensive into Germany. Rotterdam would probably have been just as important.

Some games use major and minor ports with different supply capabilities. The problem is that in order to get such a change to work in GS we need to reprogram the supply determination. Now the code says that the primary capital of a major power acts as a supply source (level 5). If the primary capital is captured then the secondary capital will work as a supply source. All other cities will give supply level 3 only. The distance to the major power capital determines the supply actual supply level (drops to 4 if more than 20 hexes from the capital and further to 3 if more than 40 hexes from the capital). Terrain has a max supply level which can drop the supply further down (swamp only has supply 2 for example).

If I would have created GS from scratch I would probably have let ports be supply sources of different levels. You could even bring mulberries to e. g. get supply level 2 instead of just 1. Major ports could give supply level 4 and minor ports supply level 3. Major city capitals could still give supply level 5 and use distance from the city just as now. I would have added distance to the ports for actual supply as well. Port supply could drop by 1 for every 5th hex down to e. g. 2 while rail supply from a major capital would drop by 1 for every 20 hexes down to e. g. 3. That's the difference between sea supply and rail supply.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

An alternative method would be to introduce rail lines and let supply flow along the rail lines. Then the distance to the supplied rail line would determine the actual supply. World in Flames and Master Front use such a system and it seems to work well. This would be fun because you can move to cut the rail supply to a unit or group of units. Cities can have intrinsic supply, but less than rail supply. You can transport supply to overseas ports and keep your units supplied at lower level than rail supply. One way could be that each port can supply a certain amount of units. E. g. a minor port can supply 2 corps and a major port 4 corps units. Mulberries can supply 1 corps and surface naval ships can supply an adjacent coastal land unit. Air transports can supply 1 corps as well. The problem is to figure out which units won't get supply. That can't be automatic and the owner player must decide which units he doesn't want to keep supplies. Unsupplied units would lose attack and defense strength and regenerate efficiency at a lower rate.

The supply system of GS is simple and works well so we have to be careful about introducing a more complex supply system. My above example shows how easily an alternative system can become maybe too complicated.

[TotalerKrieg]

Usually, the Allies can't take Paris without having a good hold on the coast - so you can assume they have captured some decent ports by that point. And Paris was a major railway hub for France, which makes it an important link in the supply chain. So I think Paris works all right for supply purposes, although Antwerp might also be a reasonable choice.

No doubt that the Western Allies have taken some ports before re-capturing Paris. In the games I have played, it is usually Cherbourg and Brest, possibly a couple more. But this historically is not enough to alleviate their supply problems. For example, see:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/an ... ar_two.htm

Also note that re-taking Antwerp was one of the goals of Wacht am Rhein, adding to the historical significance of the port.

[TotalerKrieg]

Stauffenberg,
Thanks for the in-depth response! Like you, I think that most people would like to keep the supply rules very similar to the way it is- it is easy and very playable. I wonder if there is something fairly simple that could be tried to make Antwerp more historically relevant. Would it be possible to change the game such that France is given two capitals, Antwerp and Paris? It would be key to somehow code the game such that after Paris falls it could no longer provide supply level 5 but remain a victory city. If it were possible to do this, it seems to me that this wouldn't affect the early game to much, as Antwerp would be taken before Paris by the Germans in essentially every game.
Based on what you wrote though regarding how the game is coded, it seems likely that this is not possible. Maybe for CEAW 2?