The Swiss Problem

Amaz_Ed · Post by **Amaz_Ed** » Mon May 17, 2010 9:49 am

petergarnett wrote:
iainmcneil wrote:All troops are rated vs historical opponents. The idea is too keep things playable across 300 years of history, otherwise medieval steel would obviously take apart any form of Bronze or early iron armour and weaponry.
Should that not read 3000 years of hisory?

Should that not read history?

petergarnett · Post by **petergarnett** » Mon May 17, 2010 9:53 am

Amaz_Ed wrote:
petergarnett wrote:
iainmcneil wrote:All troops are rated vs historical opponents. The idea is too keep things playable across 300 years of history, otherwise medieval steel would obviously take apart any form of Bronze or early iron armour and weaponry.
Should that not read 3000 years of hisory?
Should that not read history?

Nice one

Morbio · Post by **Morbio** » Mon May 17, 2010 11:57 am

76mm wrote:recently played my first game against the Swiss, using a Roman late Repub army. The Swiss beat my Romans fairly easily, I was surprised. While I could clearly have done some things better, the "all superior" phalanx is a very tough nut. As an aside, Iwas surprised that my Roman cav was able to easily rout his mounted knights.

It doesn't really surprise me. The Roman strength is generally heavy foot and this plays into the strength of the Swiss. My assumption would be that the Swiss would have more higher-grade units and this would be the telling factor. To beat the Swiss then the best options are mobility and terrain and the Romans can't take advantage of either of these to any great degree.

I'm not sure about the Cavalry and Knights comment. I would expect that there were only a few on the battlefield, so maybe that dice-rolling luck was a key factor. It can certainly make a big difference for a small number of units. If over many games the same situation is seen then it may be worth further investigation.

Xiggy · Post by **Xiggy** » Mon May 17, 2010 12:59 pm

I recently beat the Swiss with a Parthian list. I have lost to Anglo Irish and Irish with the Swiss. I have beaten the early German with the Swiss. The Swiss are very good, but far from unbeatable. The are immobile, and dont have good bad terrain troops and good charging mounted (you must have a lot of them) will give them trouble.

CaptainHuge · Post by **CaptainHuge** » Tue May 18, 2010 11:22 am

Should battle groups without shields, like most of the Swiss, suffer greater casualties from missile fire?

Xiggy · Post by **Xiggy** » Tue May 18, 2010 12:40 pm

They do take a lot of casuaties from ranged attacks.

CaptainHuge · Post by **CaptainHuge** » Wed May 19, 2010 11:23 am

Is there a factor for not having a shield during missile fire?

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Wed May 19, 2010 11:37 am

CaptainHuge wrote:Is there a factor for not having a shield during missile fire?

Shields are taken into account for overall armor class for troops, e.g. so troops with a large shield and no other armor are considered as protected rather than unprotectged, so there are not any separate factors explicitly for shields.

Chris

CaptainHuge · Post by **CaptainHuge** » Thu May 20, 2010 11:18 am

That makes sense, thanks Chris.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu May 20, 2010 11:28 am

batesmotel wrote:
CaptainHuge wrote:Is there a factor for not having a shield during missile fire?
Shields are taken into account for overall armor class for troops, e.g. so troops with a large shield and no other armor are considered as protected rather than unprotected, so there are not any separate factors explicitly for shields.

And although they lacked shields, the front ranks of most pike phalanxes were armoured - once again, we take into account the average level of protection for the unit and rate them as Protected.

Skanvak · Post by **Skanvak** » Sat May 29, 2010 2:18 pm

Does someone figure out a way to defeat the Swiss?

I try a swiss army again a friend and defeated his burgudian army with outstanding ease.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat May 29, 2010 2:28 pm

I haven't fought them much. The prob in part seems to be that most of the SoA armies have x% to heavy foot/knights + x% to bows of some sort. You don't have the option to go all heavy foot. The Swiss seem to be able to do that so overpower the x% of foot you can have. I've tried letting them hit the bows first...helped a bit, but not enough. They also have enough LF to shield the pikes until they hit you. I have managed to move around their flank but it was too late to make a game winning difference.

Xiggy · Post by **Xiggy** » Sun May 30, 2010 4:10 am

The Irish lists can beat the swiss if they get lots of woods and trees. They need bad terrain. They will severly disorder the swiaa and also kill their lights. In a straight up fight in open terrain maybe a late fedal french army heavy on knights might have a chance. I said earlier I have beaten them with parthian cataphracts. Knights should be similar.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun May 30, 2010 12:14 pm

I am currently running Swiss allies in my Venetian army and they dont do so good versus a bow heavy army like the English. If the English keep dancing away there is no way to close with the bows and the casualties keep mounting. My opponent shoots and shoots then when I get close runs away heading for some ugly terrain, I have to turn about or go into it and he comes back and shoots me up some more then runs away again. The swiss are slow, MF can easily out run them so unless you can back them into a nice open corner its bow fodder for my pikes.

Amaz_Ed · Post by **Amaz_Ed** » Sun May 30, 2010 2:41 pm

I'm having some success against Swiss with Later Granadine. If I don't bore them to death they get tired chasing me through rough going.

CraigStevenson · Post by **CraigStevenson** » Sun May 30, 2010 3:30 pm

Those Later Grenadine are an interesting opponent. Amaz Ed just kicked the crap out of my Condotta army with them.

krieg63 · Post by **krieg63** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:47 pm

I just have take the decision to do not accept any battle with Swiss in the future.
I hope some change will be done quickly because it's really not a fun situation.

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:08 pm

I've played as the Swiss once and it was so easy I could barely stay awake -- just keep marching forward even into bad terrain.

Deeter

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:36 pm

billgber wrote:I just have take the decision to do not accept any battle with Swiss in the future.
I hope some change will be done quickly because it's really not a fun situation.

Does this mean you wont use the Florentines that feature a huge amount of Swiss either?
Please note, Im not critising you or anything but many lists allow a lot of Swiss to be bought, not just the Swiss lists...

krieg63 · Post by **krieg63** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:47 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
billgber wrote:I just have take the decision to do not accept any battle with Swiss in the future.
I hope some change will be done quickly because it's really not a fun situation.
Does this mean you wont use the Florentines that feature a huge amount of Swiss either?
Please note, Im not critising you or anything but many lists allow a lot of Swiss to be bought, not just the Swiss lists...

no I have no problem with army that use Swiss as mercenary. There are not elite and are only a small part of the army.