Help with Italy

[gchristie]

As I'm still fairly new to PBEM, I'm finding Italy a challenge and could use some advice. I'm finding that rather than being a contributor to the Axis war effort, Italy exists in order to defend itself, with all PPs going to cranking out forces to occupy beach hexes in order to hold out for as long as possible. I also get the boot from NA pretty quickly.

One thing I'm experimenting with is maybe only buying a couple labs, one naval/subs and the other general/industry, then buying a couple subs as quickly as possible to harass the RN in the Med.

Anyway, a tip or two from more experienced players on how to bring Italy into the fray would be most appreciated.

Just don't tell my opponents

[massina_nz]

I tend to do this (some of this advice is Borger's):

1. Invest in Industry early; it helps with increasing a small production base.
2. Do not use the Regia Marina aggressively; the RN will just annihilate them. They are there to screen for subs when transporting troops and providing supply when invading Greece, if you want to do the latter.
3. Buy subs to use as recon and defend the beach hexes. Invest in sub tech, it tends to ramp up quickly.
4. Be careful with their manpower; spend your PPs on tech and leaders , not lots of units.
5. You can send the Italian INFs originally in Italy in a group to the Russian front with a leader; good for mopping up partisans, pockets, and second line units.
6. Send three German INFs and a couple of German fighters to Libya and use them as your main defense line, using Tobruk as your lynchpin. I even put a defensive bonus leader like Henrici there.
7. Don't advance into Egypt, let the Brits come to you.
8. Place some GARs around Benghazi and Tripoli; it make's it harder for the Allies to take them by amphibous invasions and come at you from the back door.

If all else fails, clog the toe of Italy with GARs, it should make it really hard for the Allies to take that pivotal third Italian city.

[schwerpunkt]

I tend to do this (some of this advice is Borger's):

1. Invest in Industry early; it helps with increasing a small production base.
2. Do not use the Regia Marina aggressively; the RN will just annihilate them. They are there to screen for subs when transporting troops and providing supply when invading Greece, if you want to do the latter.
3. Buy subs to use as recon and defend the beach hexes. Invest in sub tech, it tends to ramp up quickly.
4. Be careful with their manpower; spend your PPs on tech and leaders , not lots of units.
5. You can send the Italian INFs originally in Italy in a group to the Russian front with a leader; good for mopping up partisans, pockets, and second line units.
6. Send three German INFs and a couple of German fighters to Libya and use them as your main defense line, using Tobruk as your lynchpin. I even put a defensive bonus leader like Henrici there.
7. Don't advance into Egypt, let the Brits come to you.
8. Place some GARs around Benghazi and Tripoli; it make's it harder for the Allies to take them by amphibous invasions and come at you from the back door.

If all else fails, clog the toe of Italy with GARs, it should make it really hard for the Allies to take that pivotal third Italian city.

Good advice - the only difference in viewpoint I have is not to place too much emphasis on Industry tech - put the emphasis on Organisation instead. A 30% increase in Italian PPs only yields 9 PPs (which is I agree very useful) whilst an 21% increase in Org makes the Italian INF far tougher for the allies to deal with. In several games of mine which have played into 1945, my Italian INF have been almost as good as my Germans making them very useful in the end game. Hence, my advice is labs in General Tech (org), Naval (SUBS) and INF (no focus). If your games go very well, you could consider labs in Air but I usually dont get that luxury in the opponents I face nowadays.
Cheers

Neil

[massina_nz]

I also send the Italian air units to the Eastern Front rather than leave them in the Med. They probaly more use for recon duties in Russian rather than battling the Desert Air Force, where they typicaly just get trashed. I will invest in Italian AIR tech just to get the Strat Ops upgrades for the Italian air units. ARM labs are a waste of time for the Italians.

I like investing in Industry for all nations; Allies and Axis. I'm just following the principal of componding interest. The more you invest in industry earlier the greater the payback later on. However I almost always switch focus from industry to organisation when I get to level 4 industry tech.

[Plaid]

Whats the point to defend Libya, and even to use german troops for it? Allies have railroad, air and naval superiority and fast trasportation system, while you have max 3 supply level, problems with troops delivery and supply limits and 3 crap towns to fight for. I'd rather retreat this units, because if this britts invade italy, you will have advantage, while in africa they have.

[trulster]

Italy depends obviously a lot on what are the German plans. Unless Germany goes for a close-the-Med strategy which would allow for a more offensive Italy, then Italy is primarily about defence. Research is a must, Infantry and Industry/Organisation being the most important techs. The additional manpower pool is highly valuable, so keeping Italy alive as long as possible is a huge boon for the Axis. As mentioned, late-war Italian infantry can be tough to take out in tough terrain and benefiting from research.

[massina_nz]

Whats the point to defend Libya, and even to use german troops for it? Allies have railroad, air and naval superiority and fast trasportation system, while you have max 3 supply level, problems with troops delivery and supply limits and 3 crap towns to fight for. I'd rather retreat this units, because if this britts invade italy, you will have advantage, while in africa they have.

I agree with some of your points, but not all.

1. Yes the Allies do have the railroad, but as Axis if you're only staying in Libya then this has little or no effect.
2. Yes the RN can normally dominate the Med. But I have seen a combined Luftwaffe/Regia Marina also decimate the RN in the Med.
3. I don't agree about air supremacy. If they want to, the Axis can gain air superiority early on. Especially if the Allied player relies on CVs that have to go back to port for repairs when damaged. Land-based units don't have to do that.

Almost without exception, when the Aliied troops approach my defensive line in Libya, it's they who are at a disadvantage, as all my troops are fresh with maximum effectiveness, whilst the Allied troops are mostly at yellow status when they contact my defensive line.

Of course this is all moot if the Allies actually skip Libya, but I haven't seen an Allied player do that yet.

[Plaid]

If allied player really wants to crash axis in africa, he will send more troops including americans surely and axis will be smashed by superiour numbers on land, sea and air. As an axis player you can't try to fight them because you have supply limits and heavy struggle at ostfront.

[gchristie]

Thank you for the responses.

[supermax]

Hey Man

My take is tha Italy can make a good contribution to the Axis offensive war effort in Russia.

I find them very useful. I usually produce as many infantry as i can before the Russian campaign, or even Mech. On any normal game i can muster 6-7 INF, 2 MECH, 1 ARM and 1 HQ for the Russian front. I also move the damned wasted african italian army and transport them back to Europe and train them to Warsaw and place them for the southern thrust of Barbarossa.

The whole rationale behind this is that italy can help flood the Russians with troops. I have had my share of successes against the Russians and one thing sure works in 1941: Speed and overwhelming. Italy can help boost the central-southern effort toward Kiev and beyond. So if you have enough troops and can move them fast enough to be over the Dniepr on turn 3 or 4 (july) of Barbarossa, you have a very good chance of having a good game against the reds...

The brits wont be able to do anything about italy until 1942, so before that muster all italian ressources for Russian front, maybee investing early in INF and Industry tech. the fact of the matter is that that the allies are very easily blocked from offensive action in Italy in 1942 you can procude GAr or INf and send some germans, maybee with 1 FTR or 2 (do not recommend you need all you have for the Russian front)

[ftgcritt2]

I would encourage you to take a look at my AAR against Joerock and see what I did with the Italians in that game. In the beginning, I spent all Italian pp's on research, but ONLY in industry and infantry. You want to have your Italians get to the point that they are producing about 33 pp's per turn. That way when you need lots of garrisons asap, you can produce 2 per turn and still be able to repair a unit or two. So when the fall of north Africa became imminent, I switched all production over to garrison building to cover all of the beach hexes. If you start your garrison production early enough, then you will be able to cover every beach hex and still be able to contribute a little to the effort against the Russians. In my game against Joe, he has tried a few times to make amphibious landings on Italy but to no avail. Instead he is being forced to slug his way through the Alps to capture that illusive 3rd Italian city required to force an Italian surrender. This is the first time I have tried this strategy and it certainly could use some adjustment, but I think it has promise.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Building lots of garrisons can have some merit early in the game, but later they're too fragile to cover coastal hexes in clear terrain. Garrisons can be shore bombarded and attacked with 2 tactical bombers and destroyed before a transport lands. If you bombard an adjacent garrison then the landed infantry can attack it and destroy the garrison. Then another transport can land and you can roll up several hexes along the coast line. Garrisons only do well in hexes they won't retreat from and can't be destroyed by shore bombardment and airstrikes.

I usually let the Italians capture Belgrade to get more than 35 PP's per turn. This allows me to build one corps per turn. With 3 labs in infantry and general you can get quite good corps units later in the war. They're not intended for front line duty in Russia, but to hold the second line, garrison cities and destroy partisans. They can also hold coastal hexes in Italy.

I only place German units in Italian cities so it's harder for the Allies to grab the important third Italian city.

Garrisons don't work well at the coast line in France either. I think garrisons work best in the second line to prevent front line units from retreating.

I build 2 naval labs for Italy with focus on subs. This way I can get tech 4 or better subs when the Allies intend to invade Sicily. Build several new subs so you have maybe 4-5 of them. They work great as scouts and can damage transports trying to land at the coast line. Bombers can finish off the transports. This will force the Allied player to keep a strong naval force in the Med, thus making life easier for the German subs in the Atlantic.

[patton]

I take it this will never work against a human, but against the AI the Italians can get all the way into Iraq and take the oil. The units are weak as kittens, though. The air force especially just gets repeatedly shredded by the RAF.