Impact POA - Specific questions

[moet]

Here are more specific questions about Impact Combat rules :

1. Do shock troops include heavy weapons?

2. Do mounted shock troops include elephants or heavy or scythed chariots?

3. Is battle wagon considered a light chariot or a heavy chariot troup type?

4. Can we find, in the game, some medium foot with impact foot weapons? with offensive spear weapons? with swordsmen weapons?

5. The rules say that elephants get +1 POA when charging « against heavy or medium foot, battle wagons or any mounted ». Does "any mounted" include elephants and heavy or scythed chariots?

6. The rules say that the mounted light spears get +1 POA when charging "against any troops if no other net points of advantage". Does this mean that the +1 POA is applied only if the net POA balance of the combat is zero or negative ?

7. Lancers don’t get POA against "non-charging steady pikemen or offensive/defensive spearmen". Do they get POA against disrupted/disordered pikemen or offensive/defensive spearmen?

8. Lancers don’t get POA when charging against scythed chariots. Do they get POA against heavy chariots ?

[petergarnett]

Here are more specific questions about Impact Combat rules :

1. Do shock troops include heavy weapons? They are not related - shock foot are impact foot, offensive spear and pikes

2. Do mounted shock troops include elephants or heavy or scythed chariots? Mounted shock are lancers, heavy chariots & scythed chariots

3. Is battle wagon considered a light chariot or a heavy chariot troup type? They are a type in themselves

4. Can we find, in the game, some medium foot with impact foot weapons? with offensive spear weapons? with swordsmen weapons? Yes the mix varies between different armies but you are mixing troop types and weapons here. They are separate, i.e. impact foot may or may not have sword, sword* or heavy weapons

5. The rules say that elephants get +1 POA when charging « against heavy or medium foot, battle wagons or any mounted ». Does "any mounted" include elephants and heavy or scythed chariots? Yes they are mounted - on the help file look in the index at Troop Types

6. The rules say that the mounted light spears get +1 POA when charging "against any troops if no other net points of advantage". Does this mean that the +1 POA is applied only if the net POA balance of the combat is zero or negative ? Applies only if the the BG concerned gets no other POA modifer so for instance they are not charging rear of enemy

7. Lancers don’t get POA against "non-charging steady pikemen or offensive/defensive spearmen". Do they get POA against disrupted/disordered pikemen or offensive/defensive spearmen? You are steady if you are not disrupted / disordered. Cohesion states move down from Steady - Disordered - Routing with terrain sometimes putting a temporary state in place

8. Lancers don’t get POA when charging against scythed chariots. Do they get POA against heavy chariots ? Yes I believe so

[moet]

3. Is battle wagon considered a light chariot or a heavy chariot troup type? They are a type in themselves
5. The rules say that elephants get +1 POA when charging « against heavy or medium foot, battle wagons or any mounted ». Does "any mounted" include elephants and heavy or scythed chariots? Yes they are mounted - on the help file look in the index at Troop Types

Well, the Troop Types help page does not mention "battle wagon" at all. It talks only about Light Chariots, Heavy Chariots and Scythed Chariots.

4. Can we find, in the game, some medium foot with impact foot weapons? with offensive spear weapons? with swordsmen weapons? Yes the mix varies between different armies but you are mixing troop types and weapons here. They are separate, i.e. impact foot may or may not have sword, sword* or heavy weapons

So we can find some medium foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ? Even light foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ?

Also, the rules seem to say that no cavalry could be swordsmen+.

[deadtorius]

So we can find some medium foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ? Even light foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ?
MF swordsmen+, Spanish sword and buckler men I believe I saw them in one of the storm of arrows lists. You can get MF with heavy weapons. I dont think you will find LF with swords or heavy weapons.

Also, the rules seem to say that no cavalry could be swordsmen+.

To the best of my knowledge no mounted ever get swordsman+ Mounted sword cancels out the swordsman+ POA
Swordsman and mounted sword cancel out each others POA

[Blathergut]

So we can find some medium foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ? Even light foot being swordsmen+ or having heavy weapons ?
MF swordsmen+, Spanish sword and buckler men I believe I saw them in one of the storm of arrows lists. You can get MF with heavy weapons. I dont think you will find LF with swords or heavy weapons.

Also, the rules seem to say that no cavalry could be swordsmen+.

To the best of my knowledge no mounted ever get swordsman+ Mounted sword cancels out the swordsman+ POA
Swordsman and mounted sword cancel out each others POA

Principate Romans have a small pak of MF Light Spear + Swords+ + armour + drilled + superior

[deadtorius]

I don't think you will find any lights with swords+ or heavy weapons but some armies do have light horse with lance.

[Hermano]

1) I guess yes, shock troops may have heavy weapons, but the net of POA cant be more than ++ anyway.
2)Mounted shock troops are only the ones with lancers capability. Heavy and Scythed chariots are classified as chariots, not mounted, anyway they are shock as well.
3)Battle wagon is considered as battle wagon itself.
4)Medium foot with impact foot and swordsmen capabilities do exist, with offensive spear im not sure, but probably speamen and pikemen are classified only like heavy foot. To say heavy foot in the game means a close shoulder-to-shoulder formation, so that i guess spearmen cannot be medium due their formation. Medium foot with spear are classified just like light spear.
5)Elephants get + against any mounted, including elephants themselves. But of course, as two elephants encompassed in the same impact against each other get a +1 both, it means there is no net POA at all. Heavy and scythed chariots are not mounted, so elephants dont get any +.
6)A mounted light spear gets such as POA only if the opponent doesnt have any further net POAs. For example a light spear charging a MF crossbowmen gets + because crossbowmen the dont net any POA. If light spear charges a HF with spear capability, so mounted they dont get any POA and they play with -.
7)Yes, they get POA against either disrupted or frag spears/pikes. Disrupted spears/pikes they keep their own + so they draw the net POA, fragmented spears/pikes the lose such as +.
8)Yes, lancers gets POA against heavy chariots.

[deadtorius]

Hermano you got some things wrong there. Check out Ptergarnetts post at the top the underlined in the grey are his responses.

[Hermano]

I just answered by looking at the quick reference sheet. Chariots are not mounted, i think. Mounted are just horses, camelry and elephants as i understood. The rest i wrote i think is correct. Anyway please let me know what i misunderstood.

[deadtorius]

Mounted includes: knights, cataphracts, light horse, cavalry, camelry, elephants, heavy chariots, light chariots or scythed chariots. Chariots and elephants do not make a good combat as the elephants will also auto disorder the mounted troops, except for other elephants, and the chariots will not get their POA.

Impact foot do not get heavy weapons
MF offensive spears, there are lots of armies with them they are shock troops as well as the impact foot and pikes. Shock troops can make anarchy charges on you. Offensive spear get POA's if charging or receiving the charge, spears only get a POA if they receive a charge, likewise defensive spear only get a POA if receiving a charge or charging other defensive spears.

Once a unit of pikes or spears becomes disrupted or disordered they are no longer steady so the lancers would get the + POA but the pikes/spears will still keep their POA's till they are fragged

[Morbio]

...Chariots and elephants do not make a good combat as the elephants will also auto disorder the mounted troops, except for other elephants, and the chariots will not get their POA.

The elephants comment needs to be taken in perspective.

If the elephants are fighting alongside your own mounted horse then they will probably negatively affect your own horse. i.e. steady horse will become disordered (equivalent of disrupted). However, if your horse are already disrupted or fragmented then there is no additional negative effect. So overall, in this case, the elephants give your side a net negative effect.

If the elephants are fighting alongside your enemy's mounted horse then they will probably negatively affect your enemy's horse. i.e. steady horse will become disordered (equivalent of disrupted). However, if their horse are already disrupted or fragmented then there is no additional negative effect. So overall, in this case, the elephants give your side a net positive effect.

Of course, if the elephants are alongside both sides horse then it may even out, but it will depend on the number of units on both sides that are affected.

Note: The same affect is noticed with Camelry too.

In my opinion, elephants are great in combat if you can get them to engage enemy horse. Against other troops they generally aren't worth the high cost.

[deeter]

Interestingly, on the TT elephants disorder friendly cav but not enough to penalise them a die.

Deeter

[Morbio]

Interestingly, on the TT elephants disorder friendly cav but not enough to penalise them a die.

Deeter

Perhaps that may be because they have, to a small degree, got used to elephants being in close proximity?

[deeter]

It's because elephants disrupt any mounted within one base width. An adjacent friendly cav BG would be two bases wide by two bases deep, so only two would be affected. Since disorder loses one die per three = no effect. A four base enemy cav BG in the same formation would have all bases in range and so would lose a die.

It sort of reflects what you said morbio and it's a subtilty that got lost on its way to the PC.

Deeter

[Hermano]

I know that horses get disorderded when standing one base width from elephants or camels, but if horses charge from longer distance against elephants/camelry, so impact is under disorder or not?
Thank you

[deeter]

Shouldn't make any difference.

Deeter

[deadtorius]

I believe the mounted will be disordered in impact from the elephants