Shooting dice, quality re-rolls, and POAs

[viperofmilan]

I was reviewing the rules last night in preparation for a game this weekend when I discovered something about shooting dice that really got my attention.

On pages 93-94 there is a discussion about shooting dice. There are 3 main points.

1. If more than 1 BG is shooting at a single target BG, add the total number of bases at which a "1 dice per X bases" rule applies before calculating the actual number of dice to roll.

2. A shooting dice (as calculated above) that is made up from bases from more than 1 BG with different POAs rolls at the worst POA applicable.

3. A shooting dice that is made up from bases from BGs having different quality ratings re-rolls as the worst quality applicable.

This caught my eye becasue my group has been doing shootin incorrectly for over 2 years. For example:

Assume 2 friendly BGs (4 x superior CV bow and 4 x average MF crossbow) in 2 x 2 formation shooting at a single enemy BG of protected HF. We have played this as 3 superior dice hitting on 4s and 3 average dice hitting on 5s. According to the rules on pages 93-94, this should beplayed as 6 average dice hitting on 5s!

Have I scoped this out correctly? Is this how others have been doing shooting dice?

Thanks for any input.

Kevin

[DavidT]

You are not reading this quite right.
It is only a single die to which different quality re-rolls or shooting POA apply that is affected.
So in your example, you will still be shooting with 3 dice at 4, re-rolling 1s and 3 dice at 5, as you have been playing it.

An example where these rules will have an impact is where 6 MF crossbow and 6 MF longbow (both in two ranks) are firing at a single target (say protected HF). There will be 4 crosbow dice requiring 5 and 4 longbow dice requiring 4. The final dice is half crossbow/half longbow, so needs a 5.

[dave_r]

Nearly, but not quite.

You would get three superior dice from the Cv BG and three average dice from the MF Crossbowmen, because you then have two rear rank bases you would get an additional dice at average because this is the worst quality. Hence 3 superior and 4 average.

[philqw78]

Nearly, but not quite.

You would get three superior dice from the Cv BG and three average dice from the MF Crossbowmen, because you then have two rear rank bases you would get an additional dice at average because this is the worst quality. Hence 3 superior and 4 average.

Only if both BG were in sixes Dave would you have a rear rank base left from each, creating a single dice. In the example they are 2 BG of 4, so 3 die per BG.

[viperofmilan]

I thanks you all for your prompt responses, but I humbly must disagree. I don't see how I have mis-read the rule on pages 93-94. It is very clear to me that all bases shooting at the same target to which the same "1 dice per X bases" rule apply are totaled and then, if they come from multiple BGs haing different POAs or quality re-rolls, they all roll at the worst POA and quality ranking. That is what it says in pretty plain English.

So in my orginal example, I have 2 superior bow bases hitting on 4s and 2 average crossbow bases hitting on 5s all contributing 1 die per 1 base. I also have 2 superior bow bases hitting on 4s and 2 average crossbow bases hitting on 5s all contributing 1 die per 2 bases. So the group of bases made up of front-rank shooters all hit on 5s with no re-rolls - that is the worst applicable POA and quality ranking. The same appies to the rear-rank shooters. Together that comes to 6 average dice hitting on 5s.

Again, that is not the way we have been playing it, but it is what the rules say.

I don't want to believe it either, but I have to admit it is in line with the designers stated belief that shooting is generally ineffective for causing casualties. Please explain to me from the rules how I have gotten this wrong.

Kevin [/u]

[dave_r]

from your own post above

2. A shooting dice (as calculated above) that is made up from bases from more than 1 BG with different POAs rolls at the worst POA applicable.

3. A shooting dice that is made up from bases from BGs having different quality ratings re-rolls as the worst quality applicable.

Now, how many of those shooting dice are using bases from both battle groups?

[spikemesq]

If the rule you cite is quoted from the book, it misuses "dice" for "die." "A shooting dice" is like saying "a cattle" or "a geese."

Both rules that you note speak of "a shooting dice" -- i.e., a single die. A single die can indeed derive from bases shooting from different BGs, with different quality, etc. That is the die that must use the lower quality, POA etc.

To expand the rule to limit all shooting dice against a target to the worst quality/POA of any shooter leads to absurd results. For instance, 12 stands of MF superior longbows (9 dice) shooting unprotected Cv in 2 ranks (++) would suddenly be deflated if a single file of LF Poor Crossbow from a BG in combat (-) added a 10th die to the shooting.

Spike

[rbodleyscott]

Again, that is not the way we have been playing it, but it is what the rules say.

No it isn't. See the other posts.

[pyruse]

Spike wrote:
If the rule you cite is quoted from the book, it misuses "dice" for "die." "A shooting dice" is like saying "a cattle" or "a geese."

Both rules that you note speak of "a shooting dice" -- i.e., a single die. A single die can indeed derive from bases shooting from different BGs, with different quality, etc. That is the die that must use the lower quality, POA etc.
---------------------
In UK English (which is what the rules are written in) Dice is both singular and plural. One Dice, Two Dice.
'Die' as singular for Dice is an Americanism.

[peterrjohnston]

In UK English (which is what the rules are written in) Dice is both singular and plural. One Dice, Two Dice.
'Die' as singular for Dice is an Americanism.

Die is also the singular in English, but colloquially dice is also the singular.

There was discussion about which term to use when the rules were being written. Unfortunately, in my view, the use of dice for the singular won out.

[pyruse]

Use of dice as the singular is not colloquial; it's correct English. Here's Chambers dictionary:
dice noun (plural dice) 1 a small cube with a different number of spots, from 1 to 6, on each of its sides or faces, used in certain games of chance

Chambers also says that 'die' can be used to mean a single dice. But it's no more colloquial to talk about one dice than it is talk talk about one sheep.

[peterrjohnston]

Perhaps English has moved on since my Oxford dictionary defines dice as the colloquial for die

[grahambriggs]

Opinions differ. However, Caesar's "Alea Jacta Est" is usually tarnslated as "The die has been cast". But in the UK at least, some people use die and some use dice. The rules writers went with the latter.

[peterrjohnston]

Rules need precise language. Die is unambiguously singular, dice as singular not so; it requires an additional interpretation of the context in which it's being used, potentially confusingly so.

All irrelevant now, as the rules use dice...

[dave_r]

Perhaps English has moved on since my Oxford dictionary defines dice as the colloquial for die

Is it the Italian version of the Oxford dictionary?

[viperofmilan]

RBS has spoken indicating his original intent. That is good enough for me (especially as he is saying what I wanted to hear ).

Again, thanks to all for your input.

Kevin

[viperofmilan]

Dice means 1 spotted cube? Dice means multiple spotted cubes? I guess we really are two peoples separated by a common language.

Kevin

[philqw78]

Perhaps dicing to pass a test is better than dieing to pass a test

[viperofmilan]

I'll drink to that

Kevin