Is there a Paper/Scissors/Stone angle in these rules?

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madaxeman
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Is there a Paper/Scissors/Stone angle in these rules?

Post by madaxeman »

No - not that daft a topic I hope!

Mostly my thought is about presentation, especially thinking of these rules "vs" what I reckon is the closest thing out there, warhamster.......and getting the Paper/scissors/stone element of the interaction between different troop types to be more immedately visible. Its not just a presentation issue though.... I think its more important than that.

Having access to this forum shows thta a frequent comment is "wow, these romans are good!" But are they good against everything? Put another way, for me the real heart of what made/makes DBX such an appealing system boils down to the content of the 2 pages of combat factors, modifiers and - most especially - "QK on a more than" combat outcome listings.

These 2 pages in DBX get you thinking immediately about how varied the troop types are, how some armies could be used, all the good stuff in an easiy comprehensible way... Conversely, "Good" troops in Warhamster are "good" troops against pretty much all opposition, and the Warhamster armies / games I have tried lack flavour as there are no / few type-specific interactions. Having played one game (oops!) of AoW I suspect there are some complex interactions - but I really cant see them intuitively, and actually I am still not 100% sure they are there.

The big idea = well, The way AoW currently presents troop types is - I suspect - exactly the wrong way round.

The lists have (legionaries for example) as Heavy Foot, Superior, Drilled, armoured, Impact, Superior Swordsmen.

This puts the base size as the first part of their description, then stuff about saving throws, then movement, then onto some POAs. Why do I give a toss about base sizes - I cant see why base size (15 or 20mm deep) even matters in these rules ? saving throws - yawn...drill - oh no I say - is this a set of rules where regulars can run rings round barbarians?? ...... Only the very last bit of info, which is the superior swordsman thing - is the interesting bit.

Really, as a gamer looking at my troops (or a ruleset) means I want to know what they do, and to whom first - so they should be Superior Swordsmen, Impact, Superior, Armoured, Drilled Heavy Foot. ....And I want a combat chart to clearly show me what being a superior swordsman means I am good at killing, so I know who I should be trying to stuff them into when I do my movement. And I want to look at my opponents army and see instantly what he has got that can run me over, so I can keep my squishy bits away from his nasty stuff.

It may sound like an esoteric presentation issue, but I actually think its important to help people get an intuitive grasp of how to use troops, and what any given army will be like. And thats why its not just a list isse - the POA charts etc could/(should/must?) also be structured to reflect this (ie list Sup Swordsman, and then list everything a SS gets POAs against, then Sw and everything a Sw gets POAs, then likewise for all the main troop types), rather than organising it by the list of factors (all the +2's, then all the +1's, all the -1's etc) they seem to be at the moment

I think this is also reflected in how my first readthru saw lots of maneuver rules and no clear combat differentiators, so I imagined it as a set of rules where shuffling regulars around would be a massive advantage, and troops would be largely undifferentiated - having played, I dont think thats true as the CMT doesnt exclude much thats sensible at all, so moving is pretty easy - but Im still not sure whether anyone will have an answer to a handful of good quality legions!

AoW says it sets out to be a "troop function" rather than "troop equipment" set of rules - but there seems to be a lot of "equipment" (if you including drill) and not a lot of "functional" differentiation thats crept in, certainly at a descriptive level, maybe even at a functional level.

The next level beyond the presentation aspect drifts into a game design philosophy issue. If "who is good at doing what to whom" is the starting point for design (which it to be fair claims to be), its going to make (IMO) a game with depth. But the structure you have in the way the rules are presented at present might mean the finished product accidentally ends up not prioritising this ....?

:roll:
jre
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Post by jre »

As for the Romans, I would do a "Reality Check". Who gave trouble to the Legions?
  • Hairy warriors charging in mass? Maybe if they are lucky, but not very likely.

    Woods. Yes, that works.

    Devoted warriors with big axes? That seems to work.

    Pikes. If they remain steady, undoubtedly.

    Elephants. More of a toss up, but it helps.

    Bow cavalry keeping their distance. Sounds familiar?

    Cataphracts. Once again, the melee is a toss up, but they can try again, and again... Although ahistorical, knights should be similar.

    Lancer cavalry has an advantage in impact and a disadvantage in melee (if armoured). Once again break-off is your friend...
Although the rules could be friendlier, and we needed three hours rolling combats and match-ups to get a feeling for the odds, we like it because most things that worked then seem to work now.

What I dislike, although it seems fairly realistic, is that in our impression your army is divided in three types of BGs:
  • Main killers, which are the BGs that give character to your army. Ideally, they win your battles. They could be knights, or legionnaires, or Mamluks, or even longbowmen.

    Alternate BGs, which are the ones to deal with the enemies your Main Killers are not good against. They are mostly there to keep your army from losing quickly, rather than winning. The Auxilia and the Equites Alares are one of those for the Roman.

    Fodder. They add depth, cover some ground, add some extra attrition, but have to be kept away from most enemies, whether by their own movement or deployment. The Romans have almost no cumbersome compulsories, but they usually are also a small force.
Unfortunately Light Foot is mostly fodder right now, giving (and taking away if eliminated) too many APs to be used comfortably in risky situations. It still does what it should, but losing them is just too painful.

As for the rest, most decisive troops we have tried are either moderately good against most, but great against none (offensive spears, cavalry bows) or quite good with some weakness (Impact foot, knights). Pikes are good all-around while steady, but their high cost per frontage if you go for real killers (Swiss, Hypaspists) is a disadvantage. And there are not too many superior pikemen all around. Others would do better to consider them alternates and use something else to do their killing.

Are there more options than in "That other wargame"?„?? We have not played enough to tell yet. So far it is the battles feeling and the fun what keeps us playing. Although Francisco disagrees, I feel there are armies that are stillborn at the list level, while others are natural born winners. They will just be different ones from what we are used to.

Jos?©
nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

I think Tim has an interesting point about the presentation of the stat lines in the lists - definitely worth looking at IMO.
shall
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Post by shall »

Hi Tim,

Great batch of ideas in there. FWIW my personal view is that there is much S-P-S in there but it is deliberatley less dramatic than DBM quick kills and takes longer and more effort to take advantage of.

On your presentation ideas I think there is some great stuff there. Let me paraphrase to check I have got it....

For the tables perhaps we are saying it should look more like....

Sk Sw........IMPACT POAS..........MELEE POAs
Sw.............IMPACT POAS..........MELEE POAS
Off Sp........IMPACT POAS..........MELEE POAS

For Shooting I guess we are something like

Bw ..........POAs
Xbow.......POAs

So its done from the direction you are looking each time I guess.

On the lists I guess I am seeing something like this

12-24....Superior Legionaries: Sk Sw, Imp Ft, Arm, HF......... BG size 6-8

Is that sort of stuff what you had in mind?

Cheers

Si
madaxeman
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Post by madaxeman »

spot on Si. I want to see who does what to whom, and see it easily.

One further thought arising from the game I played. Still not sure there is enough advantage to being in line, especially if overlaps don't count at impact. The tactic that sprung to mind was:

2 lines of BG's face each other

Player A charges in their best matchup, especially if it has "impact" POA advantages, and tries to cause enough damage to its direct opponent to disorder them at impact, and hopefully break it in the ensuing melee phase (the reduction in dice for being fragged being more than enough to compensate for the overlaps usually).

Player B then takes lots of tests for "broken unit" before their next move, fails a few, isnt really able to do too much as they are disordered or trying to rally

Player A then moves agsin, charges into the still disrupted units with teh rest of their line.

I guess it relies on a sequence of events, all of varying probability ( :P !!) however without some sort of recognition for uncovered flanks in the impact phase and ZOI's preventing anyone wheeling into them there seems little advantage in charging with the whole line immediately when you have good impact troops ?
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Post by rbodleyscott »

madaxeman wrote:One further thought arising from the game I played. Still not sure there is enough advantage to being in line, especially if overlaps don't count at impact.
After lots of play test games, I can assure you solid lines are best.
The tactic that sprung to mind was:

2 lines of BG's face each other

Player A charges in their best matchup, especially if it has "impact" POA advantages, and tries to cause enough damage to its direct opponent to disorder them at impact, and hopefully break it in the ensuing melee phase (the reduction in dice for being fragged being more than enough to compensate for the overlaps usually).
True if you FRAG them, but that is unlikely. Not usually true if you only DISR them. (If the overlaps amount to 1/3 of the total dice they (in theory) cancel the effect of DISR. However, if there are any rounding errors, the DISR troops will still have more dice, since they only lose one dice per full 3 dice.)
Player B then takes lots of tests for "broken unit" before their next move, fails a few, isnt really able to do too much as they are disordered or trying to rally
Chances of failing tests for seeing routs isn't very high, unless the testers are already damaged, as usually there are no minuses and probably there is a general in range.
Player A then moves agsin, charges into the still disrupted units with teh rest of their line.
Sounds a good wheeze, but our experience of play-tests is that it is not the best plan - solid lines are better.

It certainly is not good enough to use as an "exploit".
shall
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Post by shall »

Ok Tim thanks for the calrification. I am sure we'll put some good time into the presentational issues and get there with everyones help.

My first instinct on the tactical ideas is to see if you can pull it off and congrats if you do.

It a pretty dangerous risk to stand back with troops and leave overlaps as the number certainly start to overwhelm, after a while. So with 2 groups of lancers vs one of foot its not an easy to call to decide whether to charge both and get rid of overlaps or to charge one and have to survive a round of melee as well. It would bea good one to play ot a few times with different troops.

The fact that the answer is not obvious to me is comforting IMHO.....

Si
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