Testing to not Charge

[fsmall]

The rules state that shock troops must test to not charge enemy within charge range. It doesn't seem to qualify this with the target having to be directly ahead of the shock troops. Thus, one could bring up skirmishers off to the side of shock troops and force them to either pass a CMT or else wheel (up to 90 deg) and charge?

[Sadista]

Correct. As long as the target is in legal charge range (including the wheel) they must test not to charge.

[deadtorius]

Keep in mind that a wheel will severely limit the forward move of an enemy so going too far off to the side will likely backfire on you, the wider the enemies front the less forward move they will get with a wheel.

[gozerius]

The rules state that shock troops must test to not charge enemy within charge range. It doesn't seem to qualify this with the target having to be directly ahead of the shock troops. Thus, one could bring up skirmishers off to the side of shock troops and force them to either pass a CMT or else wheel (up to 90 deg) and charge?

If you are going to try this, make sure that your intended interceptors are far enough back that they don't get caught by the charger stepping forward, thus becoming targets. This happened to my opponent a couple weeks ago. Completely scrubbed his dastardly plan.
It went like this:
Line of Polish nobles and stretzy facing a line of German men at arms at 4.5 MUs. BG of Lithuanian LH slides into charge range just outside of directly to my front. I fail my CMT, but wheel just enough that my chargers will hit the Polish line stepping forward. He can't intercept. The LH evade. I roll short. On his turn he fails his CMT and has to charge the forward BG of Germans. The next BG to the left intercepts, stopping the charge before it can contact the original target. the lone Polish BG then gets charged by the first BG in my turn and finds itself double overlapped in melee.

[muz177]

Correct. As long as the target is in legal charge range (including the wheel) they must test not to charge.

So when you have multiple units in range, how do you determine which one moves first in the charge?

Assume you have 3 offensive spear units side by side, with 1 light foot unit to front. Your opponent brings said LF unit to within charge reach of each spear unit, assuming each outer unit can wheel and thus hit the LF. The idea of the owner of the LF unit is to try and disrupt your nicely formed spear line.

As owner of the spear units, I can either declare a charge, or dice not to charge. Say I declare a charge with the centre unit, and elect to test the 2 outer units, at least 1 of which fails. If my centre unit moves first, it will move straight forward at the LF. Isn't it a bit gamy to expect that the outer unit would do anything other than move straight forward as well - I don't see why it would attempt to move across in front of the other charging unit, or try and fall in behind it in some way?

Muz

[kal5056]

Any unit charging has 2 options:
1) Charge directly forward it's full move (+ or - and VMD)
......................or........................
2) Wheel to pursue evaders.

So your spearline may be broken up slightly forward to back but need not break up it's left to right relationship to each other.

Also you roll the VMD for all 3 units and the one that moves the furthest moves first and so on to the one that moves the least.
If 2 units move the same then you choose which to move when.

Gino
SMAC

[petedalby]

Also you roll the VMD for all 3 units and the one that moves the furthest moves first and so on to the one that moves the least.

I don't believe this is correct. You are confusing charging with pursuit. In a charge you may choose the order - see page 68. In a pursuit the one that moves the furthest moves first - see page 108.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Page 68: "...if there is more than one charge, the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

Page 58: "...if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends....They do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee."

I think if only the center group declares a charge (2nd action in the IMPACT PHASE), then when the time comes for the CMT for shock troops wishing to avoid charging (4th action in the IMPACT PHASE), the two outer groups would be in a position where "they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends".

Even if they are required to pass a CMT, the active player could choose to charge with the center group first. Then the "(and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee." rule would prevent them from charging anyway.

Terry G.

[fsmall]

Page 68: "...if there is more than one charge, the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

Page 58: "...if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends....They do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee."

I think if only the center group declares a charge (2nd action in the IMPACT PHASE), then when the time comes for the CMT for shock troops wishing to avoid charging (4th action in the IMPACT PHASE), the two outer groups would be in a position where "they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends".

Even if they are required to pass a CMT, the active player could choose to charge with the center group first. Then the "(and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee." rule would prevent them from charging anyway.

Terry G.

Hmmm, I still thinking that a strict reading of the rules provides no relief to our charging troops who appear to be inexorably placed on a collision course if they fail to pass a CMT to not charge. Before any charges, each of the three groups could presumeably move to contact the target without passing through friends - the outer BGs by wheeling such that their front edge hits the target on a front corner - assuming the target doesn't evade. But you don't get a pass on not charging and not passing a CMT based on what might happen when you start charging - it's based on your position at the time charges are declared.

[ShrubMiK]

Following the turn sequence (appendix ...

- Declare (voluntary) charges
- CMT for any shock troops wishing to avoid charging
- Make charge moves.

So: the fact that the middle BG declares a voluntary charge on the enemy BG does not stop the BGs either side from having to make a CMT if they wish to avoid charging - at the point the test is made there are no friendly troops in the way.

When it comes time to "make charge moves", the active player may make them in any order. The most sensible order likely being to charge the middle BG first to avoid the side BGs crossing in front of it and messing up the line big time.

Now what I don't see is anything that says what happens to the spontaneously charging side BGs if they can no longer contact the enemy BG?

On page 58 it says "they do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee". I'm wondering about the "and will not charge" clause. To me it seems to suggest that even if they have failed their test, friends getting in the way so completely that it is no longer possible to contact the target will cancel the charge. If so it's awkward wording, but I can't think of any other reason why the rules would need to say it like that.

[fsmall]

On page 58 it says "they do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee". I'm wondering about the "and will not charge" clause. To me it seems to suggest that even if they have failed their test, friends getting in the way so completely that it is no longer possible to contact the target will cancel the charge. If so it's awkward wording, but I can't think of any other reason why the rules would need to say it like that.

But not being able to contact the target doesn't prevent a charge. After all, skirmishers put themselves in position all the time where it will be impossible to catch them, yet the shock troops are forced to complete a charge move anyway.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Well, the rules say the BG will not charge if their charge would pass through friends already in melee. Charging with the middle BG first would seem to cancel the others' charges even if they fail their CMT.

Terry G.

[gozerius]

In this scenario, the BGs which do not elect to charge must pas a CMT not to charge. Then based on the results of the rolls the phasing player may choose the order in which the charging BGs move. The charging player must then select a charge path for each of the charging BGs which will allow them to legally contact the enemy BG if it does not evade. If the BG evades, the BGs may alter their original path to follow the evaders, or follow their original path.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

That is all true. However, if the three charging BGs are lined up side by side and touching, I don't see any way either of the outer two could make legal charge contact with a target whose front has been completely covered by the center BG having charged first. Page 53 says a charge cannot be declared if it would contact only the flank or rear of an enemy base which is already in melee to its front unless it is a legal flank charge. It seems to me any attempt to wheel during the charge would cause the outside BGs to either contact friends already in melee (in which case, they "will not charge") or to make illegal flank contact with the target.

Terry G.

[ShrubMiK]

On page 58 it says "they do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee". I'm wondering about the "and will not charge" clause. To me it seems to suggest that even if they have failed their test, friends getting in the way so completely that it is no longer possible to contact the target will cancel the charge. If so it's awkward wording, but I can't think of any other reason why the rules would need to say it like that.

But not being able to contact the target doesn't prevent a charge. After all, skirmishers put themselves in position all the time where it will be impossible to catch them, yet the shock troops are forced to complete a charge move anyway.

True. But that's not what I said.

[deadtorius]

If none of them have charged yet none of them are in melee, so no friends are in melee yet. To be in melee you would have had to contact an enemy during impact, then during the melee phase you are now in melee. Charging into contact first does not count as a melee yet

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Are you contending the rule on page 53 that states "A charge cannot be delared if it would contact the flank or rear of an enemy base which is already in melee to its front" doesn't apply in the Impact Phase because there is no melee until the Melee Phase? I don't think that is a proper application of the rule. If the center group charged first and covered the whole front of the target BG, I don't think another BG could wheel from in front to make contact with its flank at the same time.

Have I got this wrong?

Thanks.

Terry G.

[gozerius]

If the front of all the enemy BG's bases are already covered by the first charging BG, the other BGs CAN still contact the enemy BG on its flank, but this does not count as a flank charge, and the player with more bases in contact gets to determine which bases will actually fight in the impact combat. The restriction against contacting a BG already in melee applies to BGs that are already in a pre-existing melee, not those only contacted by chargers this bound.