What is the FoG Scale ?

peteboro64 · Post by **peteboro64** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:04 pm

What is the ground scale in FoG. i.e. what distance does one hex represent in meters/yards roughly?
Thanks
Pete

Brigz · Post by **Brigz** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:08 pm

I've thought of this too. Thinking that the scale was variable, I then started to think about missile range. If you consider how far a javelin could be thrown, that should give an idea, since the game rates the range of a javelin at two hexes. Two hexes being equal to 80 or 100 yards? But then that would mean cramming 1500 troops into a frontage of 40 to 50 yards. But then you have to consider that troop strength is purely cosmetic and has no bearing on the game. So I'd suggest that ground scale is nebulous.

peteboro64 · Post by **peteboro64** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:21 pm

I also tried considering weapon ranges - which lead me to a figure of about 50 yards per hex (based on javelin range of 2 hexes, bow of 4 etc.).

I have not checked them all, but this seems to make some of the scenarios provided with the game look about right
e.g. Agincourt - most historical records seem to agree that the frontage was about 700 yards (so that would be 14 hexes) and the scenario has about 13.

Any further comments welcomed !

SRW1962 · Post by **SRW1962** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:01 pm

You are all on the right track by considering the missile range and using it to figure the ground scale. That of course means that the 'official' unit scale is about 3 times more than could fit into the hex. 50 yds x 1yd frontage per man for close formation foot x by 8 ranks deep for an average formation equals about 400 men, for ease of use call it say 400 -500 men and one unit of legionaries is cohort size. Of course many players may not be that bothered about exact unit sizes, but some of us may find it useful and want to change the unit size for certain scenarios etc.

I use a scale of 1 hex = 50yds, HF = 500 men, MF & Cav = 300 men, LF, LH = 200 men all approx of course. For the vast majority of battles this will be about right, only for the much larger historical refights might a larger figure scale be needed, but then if larger maps were made available it would result in any battle being able to be fought at a smaller figure scale.

Just my thoughts anyway.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:20 pm

Well, if at 50 yards then javelin men can thow quite a distance! I dont think there is any scale in the game at all by intent however the #s are pretty close for the scale of SOA battle (if you ignore the # of men in the unit) If you look in some of the canned historical scenarios (ROR) there is no way that a hex could be 50 or 100 yards wide. Many of these battle lines had frontages over over a mile... gaugmela was almost 3 miles I believe... However, in game bows on one flank can reasliy support the other flank even if it takes a move to get there...
I admit this really bothered me when i ist bought the game, but since the value of each unit class and the fact that battles seam to play out historically via the differnt unit types I have stopped fretting over it

SRW1962 · Post by **SRW1962** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Well, most TT rules seem togive javelins a range of 80 or so yds for some unknown reason (maybe so people think they are useful?) anyway as for the canned scenarios they are again a typical feature of TT games which is to make the scenario 'fit' the game by scaling down the units/figures until you get Guagamela to fit on your wargames table.

I agree that it did bother me a bit about the troop scale employed, but then I simply ignored it for the most part and thats how I deal with it now. However when I do get a bit anoraky and start to dwell on things I do get miffed when a Mid-Republican Roman legion is represented by 1 Velite, 1 Hastati, 1 Princepes, and a shared Triarii or all of Alexanders Phalangites at the battle of guagamela are represented by 8 pike units.

Just a thought

kujalar · Post by **kujalar** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:20 am

I use this logic to ease my mind with ranges.

1 hex is a melee range , so it is 0 yards.
2 hexes is the shortest you can shoot, it is "over 1 hex" so the range is 1* hex depth
3 hexes is "over 2 hexes" -> 2*hexdepth
..
5 hexes is "over 4 hexes" -> 4*hexdepth

so with 50 yard scale the 5 hexes would be 200 yards range, totally reasonable.
with 70 yard scale it would be 280 yards, I can live with it...

With ancient battles I like to think the hex should be 100-70 yards, with medieval I find it comfortable to use maybe 50-70 yards if I would be the one deciding what scale to build a scenario into.

SRW1962 · Post by **SRW1962** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:40 am

kujalar wrote:I use this logic to ease my mind with ranges.

1 hex is a melee range , so it is 0 yards.
2 hexes is the shortest you can shoot, it is "over 1 hex" so the range is 1* hex depth
3 hexes is "over 2 hexes" -> 2*hexdepth
..
5 hexes is "over 4 hexes" -> 4*hexdepth

so with 50 yard scale the 5 hexes would be 200 yards range, totally reasonable.
with 70 yard scale it would be 280 yards, I can live with it...

With ancient battles I like to think the hex should be 100-70 yards, with medieval I find it comfortable to use maybe 50-70 yards if I would be the one deciding what scale to build a scenario into.

I like this idea very much! I think that the range of 50 -100 yards or 75yds if you want to split the difference would make even the largest battles such as Gaugamela accessible using a smaller unit scale, thus more units to make it very much a grand affair. 3 miles frontage divided by 100 yds equals 53 hexes, easily done on a 50 hex wide map which is the maximum we have now and the unit scale could be halved to around 750/500/250. Now if we had maps up to 75 wide we could go for a range of 75 yds (which having read your comments is a very happy medium with 300 yds max bow range) and a unit scale of around 600/400/200.

Either way the current 1500/1000/500 unit scale is much too high and with immortal fire soon to come out the lists will show Alexanders army with 6 units of Hypaspists 6000-9000 men depending upon whether you field them as MF or HF but he only ever had 3000 maximum. I am sure that this isn't the only army to have such inconsistencies with troop scales.

Obsolete · Post by **Obsolete** » Sat May 08, 2010 1:11 am

Ouch, it so does hurt my eyes when I see people using non-metric scales in scenario designs in this modern age

Brigz · Post by **Brigz** » Sat May 08, 2010 2:14 am

Obsolete wrote:Ouch, it so does hurt my eyes when I see people using non-metric scales in scenario designs in this modern age

They didn't use metric scales in ancient times. Yards seem to fit the era much better.

SRW1962 · Post by **SRW1962** » Sat May 08, 2010 9:51 am

Brigz wrote:
Obsolete wrote:Ouch, it so does hurt my eyes when I see people using non-metric scales in scenario designs in this modern age
They didn't use metric scales in ancient times. Yards seem to fit the era much better.

Also it is very easy to calculate between yards and metres

Ardaeshir · Post by **Ardaeshir** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:53 pm

Brigz wrote:
Obsolete wrote:Ouch, it so does hurt my eyes when I see people using non-metric scales in scenario designs in this modern age
They didn't use metric scales in ancient times. Yards seem to fit the era much better.

Yards? By gods, no not yards! The "yard" came into use in 14th century England at its earliest.

If you want to use ancient measurements, I suggest using the "stadium" (circa 210 yards or 192 meters).

Also, most mediterran cultures of the 2nd century BCE - 5th century AD used "feet" as a unit of lenght, albeit the exact lenght of this unit varied from state to state (the egyptian foot was not the same as the roman one for example).
The Roman foot was about 0.97 of the US foot or 29.5 centimeters.

Therefore, assuming the basis as 4 hexes per arrow maximum effective range, I find it rational to think that a single hex is about 0.3 or 0.35 stadiums long (As it seems that the javelin range of 2 hexes is made longer than a realistic one, because of game engine purposes, so as not to have the javelin throwers get into melee range while throwing their weapons).