Artillery and palissades

[moet]

I understand why we can't move artillery and palissade during a turn, but it is quite useless to have those interesting units as long as we can not move them out of the deployment zone. In the actual situation, artillery and palissades can just help to protect the camp.

[TheGrayMouser]

I agree, perhaps the deployment range for those units can be extended, much the same way light troops can deploy 2-3 hexes beyond heavies and mediums....

[batesmotel]

I agree, perhaps the deployment range for those units can be extended, much the same way light troops can deploy 2-3 hexes beyond heavies and mediums....

This is essentially what is allowed in the TT rules for deploying fortifications and troops manning them.

Chris

[jamespcrowley]

Certainly needs to be a change in deployment. At the moment artillery, especially heavy, is all but redundant. The AI picks it often; never seen it used. Human opponrnts never pick it.

[deadtorius]

I have seen one player who picked it once, I managed to more or less avoid it but I think he got a few shots off on me, not that it did much good as his army collapsed just as I was getting into the point of contacting his artillery. Seen it used on the TT in a few games, same thing there first game it did not even get a chance to shoot second game it got off one shot as my companions pursued in front of it, but then it was engaged in melee and died.

Wonder if it would help to curb pantherboy's luck?

[petergarnett]

Sorry but we are talking ancient artillery here not the modern stuff you'd need v pantherboy

[ianiow]

Perhaps it could be mobile until it fires its first shot? You may have to stretch your imagination a bit to assume it can be assembled so quickly but for playability it seems a reasonable compromise to me.

[Scutarii]

Well, in other games after move an arty unit cant shoot... could add this to the game, light arty can shoot if move in the same turn but for medium if you move cant shoot .... for example.

PD: another question is add a limit in the number of shoots in arty and bow/javelin/crossbow/gun units.

[rbodleyscott]

The TT/PC rules don't allow non-light artillery to move during a battle because historically it didn't.

Wargamers always seem to want artillery to be more effective, but this would be historically inaccurate.

Non-light artillery was mostly brought for sieges, not for the open battles that FOG represents.

If you don't find it effective, don't use it. The vast majority of ancient and medieval armies didn't. (In field battles).

If it was more effective, it would be used far more than is historicially justifiable.

[moet]

Non-light artillery was mostly brought for sieges, not for the open battles that FOG represents.

Well, in that case, what is the purpose to add this type of unit to the game since there is no "siege type" scenario ? Do you plan to add this type of scenarios ?

[TheGrayMouser]

Non-light artillery was mostly brought for sieges, not for the open battles that FOG represents.

Well, in that case, what is the purpose to add this type of unit to the game since there is no "siege type" scenario ? Do you plan to add this type of scenarios ?

This is from some design notes for the TT game in that forum and likly the same philosophy is in the PC game as well.
viewtopic.php?t=9335

Quote:
"Artillery: “As usual all calibrated to give good overall feel for the period which is:
* Artillery don't do much except against nice large dense targets, and even then nothing like later periods
* They can create some psychological effects though if supported by others
* They are pretty effective behind barricades
* They are very useful in a siege
* They were however used on battlefields and need to be represented” Simon Hall "

[rbodleyscott]

Non-light artillery was mostly brought for sieges, not for the open battles that FOG represents.

Well, in that case, what is the purpose to add this type of unit to the game since there is no "siege type" scenario ? Do you plan to add this type of scenarios ?

They were used in open battles, just not often or very effectively. (i.e. Pretty much as represented in the game).

I am not on the FOG PC design team so cannot speak for any future plans.

[Scutarii]

Well, if you add arty in army lists at least give it a role, i know that this arty dont are like modern arty BUT as other poster says deploy arty as medium or heavy units dont help, now the only role to play for arty is reguard support and is a very limited role because usually when arty can shoot the battle is over.... one option is reduce arty cost (2-5 points), another is change deployment (2-4 hexes more) or increase the range, longbow have 5 hexes and the double for arty isnt excesive.

This is a PC game, i dont have the table game and never play it but i play THIS game and talk about it and use the table game as "Bible" is a little... sorry but for me FoG PC game is totally diferent than table game and need it own "life".

[moet]

It would be interesting to know what was the historical use of field heavy artillery (out of a siege situation). With the actual restraints, the HA would just serve to protect the camp.

But I appreciate the fact that light artillery can move on the battlefield.

[rbodleyscott]

This is a PC game, i dont have the table game and never play it but i play THIS game and talk about it and use the table game as "Bible" is a little... sorry but for me FoG PC game is totally diferent than table game and need it own "life".

The point is not that the PC game should be like the TT game, but that it should be like history. As the TT game attempts to be like history, then normally the PC game will go in the same direction, unless there is some PC implementation reason for it to be different.

Treating artillery unhistorically just to give them more of a role does not fit with the game philosophy - FOG is not fantasy wargaming.

[Scutarii]

The problem with arty now is that dont have an historical use and dont have an usefull use in the game, historical arty in medieval armies where used only in sieges, not in battle field (in few battles arty was present and only one piece or a pair) but in XVI century things change, in the game arty units as historical way are incorrect because they arent siege pieces for example the use of light arty is incorrect because first arty units dont have wheels.

My point is if you add it to the list give then some usefull function and change deployment areas is a good way to do it.

[rbodleyscott]

The problem with arty now is that dont have an historical use and dont have an usefull use in the game, historical arty in medieval armies where used only in sieges, not in battle field (in few battles arty was present and only one piece or a pair) but in XVI century things change, in the game arty units as historical way are incorrect because they arent siege pieces for example the use of light arty is incorrect because first arty units dont have wheels.

Well actually...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroballista

[Paisley]

Philip II of Macedon was discomfited by Phokian massed artillery. He retreated 'like a ram to butt the harder.'

[Scutarii]

I refer to gunpowder weapons the weapons that appear in SoA for RoR add a new deploy for ballistas could be interesting because now i find this weapons in all AI armies and in one battle VS a human and can say that dont shoot nothing even when my army defeat enemy´s center

The problem is that in an points battle artillery only can do something if you dont advance and if you dont do it every unit routed in your line is a unit less because cant recover it, battles now are a total advance and stop