Happy to fragged

[TheGrayMouser]

My understanding is that a unit can, under most circumstances can only drop 1 cohesion level in any one comabat phase ie impact or melee

However I just had the misfortune to see that this isnt always the case
example: (in a dag campaign battle )

*Lone enemy pike protected average, I bring up a average protected legion, 100% strength and impact, my good going unit goes to fragged!, bring up second and same result!

*Now to prove I have utilized the manual I had a another situaton that same turn same troop types but were locked in melee already, one legion was fragged the other disrupted, I chose to resolve the fragged unit fisrt and it routed, the disrupted one then routed as well. According to the rules this is can happen as a unit can drop 2 cohesion levels in one turn ie if friendly BG routs and is adjacent

however the ist example does not appear to be valid.

Now , I am positive I have seen units drop 2 levels in one phase before but it is usually a real weak unit type ie a medium foot light spear type being impacted by a heavy unit, Lancer, superior impact foot etc

possible bug or am I missing soemthing?

[batesmotel]

less than 3 A battle group will drop two cohesion levels if testing for friends routing, the loss of a general or a major defeat in close combat otherwise one level.

I believe a major defeat is taking 2 or more hits than it gave but would need to double check that.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

Ok I see that now, although it doesnt exactly define a major defeat, you do get a -1 modifier if you recieve more than you inflict, and a -1 if you revieve more than 2 hits..
I dont think any other modifiers applied in my example which means I rolled under a 3 (modified by -2) twice , ouch...
Actually statistically its actually not that hard... rolling 5 or less out of 12 is what , 42% and then subtract 2 ...... I guess the key is not rolling bad in the combat in the ist place and then one doesnt need to worry about the cohesion part!

[batesmotel]

Ok I see that now, although it doesnt exactly define a major defeat, you do get a -1 modifier if you recieve more than you inflict, and a -1 if you revieve more than 2 hits..
I dont think any other modifiers applied in my example which means I rolled under a 3 (modified by -2) twice , ouch...
Actually statistically its actually not that hard... rolling 5 or less out of 12 is what , 42% and then subtract 2 ...... I guess the key is not rolling bad in the combat in the ist place and then one doesnt need to worry about the cohesion part!

This is where having a general adjacent/or and rear support can make a big difference.

Chris

[Xiccarph]

I recently had a medium infantry unit get and receive 0 hits and go from full health to routed. That was weird, and the only time I have seen it happen.

[Morbio]

I recently had a medium infantry unit get and receive 0 hits and go from full health to routed. That was weird, and the only time I have seen it happen.

Possibly dropped below the auto rout level?

[petergarnett]

Depends what Xiccarph means by full health - I assume Steady cohesion in which case you might be correct with autorout.

[TheGrayMouser]

Ok I see that now, although it doesnt exactly define a major defeat, you do get a -1 modifier if you recieve more than you inflict, and a -1 if you revieve more than 2 hits..
I dont think any other modifiers applied in my example which means I rolled under a 3 (modified by -2) twice , ouch...
Actually statistically its actually not that hard... rolling 5 or less out of 12 is what , 42% and then subtract 2 ...... I guess the key is not rolling bad in the combat in the ist place and then one doesnt need to worry about the cohesion part!

This is where having a general adjacent/or and rear support can make a big difference.

Chris

Except you cant have rear support when you are asaulting the enemy (ie charging into impact combat)

[petergarnett]

Why can't you when charging? I sometimes move a BG 2 hexes from target BG so that my impact BG can then charge in & get the benefit if a test happens.

Am I missing something here?

[TheGrayMouser]

Why can't you when charging? I sometimes move a BG 2 hexes from target BG so that my impact BG can then charge in & get the benefit if a test happens.

Am I missing something here?

Well, yeah you can do that sometimes, if you have space to commit those units to providing rear support... In my example was impossible as my battle line was 2 deep and 4 plus hexes wide... enemy was 1 hex away from front lines so the ist to charge was going to have no support when he charged.

[petergarnett]

OK - was concerned I'd missed a rule preventing such support.

[dazzam]

I must admit I don't really understand that rule. From my reading of it you can only have one drop in cohesion per turn from melee and one from impact. However I am sure I have had troops who are fighting say 2 units drop a cohesion level both of the melees in that turn. Would appreciate if anyone could fully explain that..thanks

[IainMcNeil]

You can only drop one level from shooting

From melee or impact you can drop 1 or 2 levels. To drop 2 you have to be pretty unlucky or lose badly in melee.

On top of this is autobreak - when a unit gets to X% it will rout and never rally. The % varies with quality level, but is around 45-60%

[dazzam]

So can if I am facing 2 BG say both in melee can I potentially drop 2 levels from one attack and one level from the other attack.

[IainMcNeil]

No, you only "roll" the dice once per turn for a combat result.

The roll is stored and used for all calculations. The only way you can drop one, then another is if you were borderline and the new modifiers being applied for more casualties of lost general etc push you below the point where you drop 2 cohesion levels in one go.

E.g. I lose a melee and roll a 4, which is a fail, drop one level. Later on I lose again but no extra modifiers apply so I do not drop again. Later on I suffer another fail and have mroe than 25% casualties and lost badly, so it pushses me down to 2 and in to the double drop zone, so I drop another cohesion level.

[Morbio]

Oh, that's confirmed something I've suspected for quite a while....

I attack a LF with a superior or elite unit and take it from Steady to Fragged.

I then belt it with all sorts to try and get it to rout and no matter how bad the hits it never seems to rout. I now know not to bother because it is a waste of troops - particularly if I'm hitting it with weak or non-steady unit!

[TheGrayMouser]

Oh, that's confirmed something I've suspected for quite a while....

I attack a LF with a superior or elite unit and take it from Steady to Fragged.

I then belt it with all sorts to try and get it to rout and no matter how bad the hits it never seems to rout. I now know not to bother because it is a waste of troops - particularly if I'm hitting it with weak or non-steady unit!

Unless you can reduce its men to the auto rout level

[petergarnett]

May not be a waste if you can push the light to autobreak, i.e. for average falls below 55% strength. I've used that recently quite successfully on more than just lights!

[dazzam]

OK thanks..and can I confirm though that a unit that is in a melee that is charged in the same turn but after the melee and suffers losses will have a separate dice roll due to the impact combat or will it still use the dice from the melee?

[IainMcNeil]

In the same turn it will have the same roll. Impact/melee makes no difference as we don't have any phases in PC FoG.