Historicon 2010: Steppe v. Civilized theme army lists

[babyshark]

Here are the army lists that will be in use for the Historicon "Steppe v. Civilization" theme. I will be posting the entire official announcement later when I get a chance to do some more typing. In the mean time, I offer this to chew on.

In general, players will bring an army from either the steppe list or the civilized list. All games will match steppe v. civilized armies, with the totaled outcomes determining whether the steppe team or the civilized team wins. The full details of how matchups will be chosen and so on will be posted soon.

As for the allowed armies: I know, I know, "<insert> should obviously be included." Sorry. I may be willing to listen to reasoned arguments as to why a particular army should be in or out. I may not. Make your arguments quickly, though. Once I have the final language ready for inclusion in the Historicon PEL there will be no going back. So, without further ado . . . .

List of Steppe armies:
Early Horse Nomad
Later Horse Nomad
Cimmerian
Early Skythian
Skythian
Kushan or Indo-Skythian
Western Hunnic
Hepthalite Hunnic
Early Bulgar
Western Turk
Seljuk Turk (only before 1092 AD; that is, no Rum, Syria, or Eastern options)
Mongol Conquest
Mongol Invasion
Tatar
Cuman
Pecheneg
Avar

List of Settled armies:
Neo-Sargonid Assyrians
Early Achaemenid Persian (but no Medizing Greeks in 479)
Alexander Macedonian
Graeco-Bactrian
Foederate Roman (eastern options only)
Early Byzantines
Maurikian Byzantines
Thematic Byzantines
Warring States to Western Han Chinese
Eastern Han Chinese
Northern Dynasties Chinese
Western Wei to Early T’ang Chinese
Late T’ang to Five Dynasties Chinese
Georgian
Khwarazmian
Early Russian
Late Russian
Early Lithuanian or Samogitan
Later Lithuanian
Feudal Polish
Later Polish
Early Hungarian
Middle Hungarian
Late Heian to Muromachi Japanese

[Scrumpy]

I thought the Early Bulgars were going to be civilized, the church etc ?

[ethan]

I would let Teutonic Knights and Middle Hungarians in on the civilized side (both fought the Mongols IIRC). Doh, see the Hungarians are there already.

Xi Xia should probably be on the civilized side, they were Genghis' first victim I think.

[hazelbark]

I thought the Early Bulgars were going to be civilized, the church etc ?

They weren't

[Skullzgrinda]

This saved me some money. A steppe theme had me interested.

[Scottbot]

It was the Guptas who eventually wiped out the Kushan and Indo-Skythians (more or less)...and they were pretty much their only foes, aside from a brief appearance by the Graeco-Bactrians. And, of course, the Gupta empire struggled against and was finally brought down by various Hun tribes.

In deference to their long, doomed struggle against the unwashed barbarians, I think the Guptas should be included.

[iversonjm]

I suspect that you won't get any Steppe players with these lists. I know I'll be on the civilized side.

[iversonjm]

You may want to take a poll however.

[pcelella]

I suspect that you won't get any Steppe players with these lists. I know I'll be on the civilized side.

I was considering Seljuk Turks, but I wanted to take them with the Syrian option before 1128 so that I could take some lancers and Dailami. Without that option, that army can be essentially only bow-armed light horse and cavalry - which is pretty much identical to all the other armies listed. I think with only the only presently included armies on the steppe side, there won't be much variety or color in the theme. If the choices remain only what Mark gives so far for the steppes, I'm with Matt - looks like I'll be playing Foederate Romans. Or maybe Alexandrians.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

[pcelella]

You may want to take a poll however.

I'm curious though, Matt - won't almost any steppe army have pretty much only some combination of bow-armed light horse and cavalry with very few other options? It would be nice to see a bit more variety than that, but I'm not sure what there is realistically. What would you suggest for steppe armies that have not been included that would encourage more steppe players to show up?

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

[Ghaznavid]

Some get lancer Cv in addition or instead (or even Cataphracts), some elephants. Kushan can actually look more like an Indian army with lots of LH then a steppe outfit. Others get interesting allies. (Like Ottomans with Crimean Tatars. I always wondered if on BG of janissaries does anything to help that army... guess I need to find out once my Ottomans are finished.)

[devilforrest]

How do you avoid advantages for certain armies when putting together such narrow themes?

[babyshark]

This saved me some money. A steppe theme had me interested.

I'm glad I could help.

Marc

[babyshark]

You may want to take a poll however.

I'm curious though, Matt - won't almost any steppe army have pretty much only some combination of bow-armed light horse and cavalry with very few other options? It would be nice to see a bit more variety than that, but I'm not sure what there is realistically. What would you suggest for steppe armies that have not been included that would encourage more steppe players to show up?

Exactly my question. Talk to me, people.

Marc

[Ghaznavid]

Well as it's on the wrong side of the pond I'm not going to attend, but...
My favourite 'steppe' army are Ilkhanids, the Kn make for an interesting twist (even if I'm still having trouble to get it to work as intended). Admittedly for some reasons Ilkhanids do not get steppe terrain. (Despite part of their lands being clearly steppe and the same area that seems to serve for giving the Khwarezmians Steppe + which was fought over with the Golden Horde). It could also be argued that at least the later Ilkhanids are more fitting the settled categorie, but I doubt that applies until after Abaqas death (in 1282).

[berthier]

Interesting that the Sasanids are not listed as one of the civilized. They were ravaged by both the Western Huns and the Heph. Huns.

Christopher Anders

[hazelbark]

I suspect that you won't get any Steppe players with these lists. I know I'll be on the civilized side.

Because Western Turks don't work? Oh wait you ran those in an open. Why not now?

[hazelbark]

Well as it's on the wrong side of the pond I'm not going to attend, but...
My favourite 'steppe' army are Ilkhanids, the Kn make for an interesting twist (even if I'm still having trouble to get it to work as intended). Admittedly for some reasons Ilkhanids do not get steppe terrain. (Despite part of their lands being clearly steppe and the same area that seems to serve for giving the Khwarezmians Steppe + which was fought over with the Golden Horde). It could also be argued that at least the later Ilkhanids are more fitting the settled categorie, but I doubt that applies until after Abaqas death (in 1282).

Of course the Ilkhans sweeping out of the steppes had no Knights until they were pretty deep into the Middle east.

[hazelbark]

This saved me some money. A steppe theme had me interested.

Meaning you have the army or now you are not interested?

What interests you for a steppe theme?

[hazelbark]

How do you avoid advantages for certain armies when putting together such narrow themes?

This is the hard part. Some will have advantages. Also who attends is different from who posts. Honestly I could be assigned to either side and have fun and think I could be competitive.