Historicon steppes theme: question 2

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:05 pm

The next question is which "settled" or "civilized" armies are chosen to oppose the steppe armies listed in the previous question. The definition of civilized army, for this purpose, is one that suffered serious invasion(s) from steppe peoples. Note: I am not interested in armies that invaded the steppes, or went on the offensive against steppe peoples. I want the poor suckers who rode to Manzikert, not Nikephoras II Phokas, if you follow me.

Talk to me, people.

Marc

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:48 pm

babyshark wrote:The next question is which "settled" or "civilized" armies are chosen to oppose the steppe armies listed in the previous question. The definition of civilized army, for this purpose, is one that suffered serious invasion(s) from steppe peoples. Note: I am not interested in armies that invaded the steppes, or went on the offensive against steppe peoples. I want the poor suckers who rode to Manzikert, not Nikephoras II Phokas, if you follow me.

Talk to me, people.

Marc

But the Nikephorian Byzantine list covers both Nikephoras II Phokas and Manzikert! Seems like nearly all the Byzantines have some justification for inclusion. More specifically:

Nikephorian Byzantines (post 1042 unless the earlier should possibly be included for wars against the Bulgars)
Thematic Byzantines (possibly without the late changes that add Kataphraktoi, etc. don't remember the start date)
Maurikian Byzantines (Avar siege of Constantinople)
Komnemnan Byzantine (threatened by both the Petchenegs and the Seljuks)

Chris

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:59 pm

batesmotel wrote:
babyshark wrote:The next question is which "settled" or "civilized" armies are chosen to oppose the steppe armies listed in the previous question. The definition of civilized army, for this purpose, is one that suffered serious invasion(s) from steppe peoples. Note: I am not interested in armies that invaded the steppes, or went on the offensive against steppe peoples. I want the poor suckers who rode to Manzikert, not Nikephoras II Phokas, if you follow me.

Talk to me, people.

Marc
But the Nikephorian Byzantine list covers both Nikephoras II Phokas and Manzikert! Seems like nearly all the Byzantines have some justification for inclusion. More specifically:

Nikephorian Byzantines (post 1042 unless the earlier should possibly be included for wars against the Bulgars)
Chris

Thank you. That's the sort of information that I am interested in. The Bulgars in this period count as settled (one cannot have one's very own Orthodox church and still count as a steppe army for purposes of this Theme).

Now, to hear from people who know something about China . . . .

Marc

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:07 pm

I would include the more competent people who took the fight out onto the steppes. Civilized countries wouldn't generally have bothered if they didn't consider the barbarians out on the steppes a threat.

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:20 pm

I would think you would need to include the various Russian, Polish, and Hungarian armies that were devastated by the Mongol European invasion.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:31 pm

pcelella wrote:I would think you would need to include the various Russian, Polish, and Hungarian armies that were devastated by the Mongol European invasion.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

Teutonics, Lithuanians, Armenians, Georgians and anyone living in central asia and china...

I would exclude Yuan Chinese btw.

LambertSimnel · Post by **LambertSimnel** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:57 pm

As enemies of the Huns, you have the Foederate Romans and (late, Eastern) Dominate Romans; plus (depending on how broard your definition of civilized is) the Early Franks, Early Ostrogoths, Early Visigoths, the Gepids and probably several others that I have missed.

EDIT
and the Hephthalites have Sassanid, Classical Indian (Gupta), Indo-Skythian, and Later Hindu North Indian enemies.

EDIT2
On second thoughts by the time the Guptas have been replaced by the Later Hindu North Indians, the Hephthalites are probably no-longer what you would class as a Steppe army.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:05 pm

Some dark age/feudal additions:

Early South Slavs (against the Avars)
Carolingian Frankish (Frankish resistance to and Charlemagne's campaigns against the Avars)
Early Medieval German (fought against the Magyars in central Europe)

Chris

LambertSimnel · Post by **LambertSimnel** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Some Ancients

Lydian (fought Cimmerians)
Neo-Assyrian Empire (fought Cimmerians)
Urartians (fought Cimmerians)
Greco-Bactrians (fought Scythians)

devilforrest · Post by **devilforrest** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:47 pm

From Swords and Scimitars it would be good to see the Khwarazmians and Mamluk Egyptians.

Scottbot · Post by **Scottbot** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:30 pm

Any idea when the lists will be finalized? I've got graeco-bactrian, rajputs and guptas and depending upon which, if any, make the list for settled peoples will determine which army I start furiously painting

-Scott

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:39 pm

Scottbot wrote:Any idea when the lists will be finalized? I've got graeco-bactrian, rajputs and guptas and depending upon which, if any, make the list for settled peoples will determine which army I start furiously painting

-Scott

Soon, soon. The issue right now is less which armies to include than which to exclude.

Marc

Historicon steppes theme: question 2

Historicon steppes theme: question 2

Re: Historicon steppes theme: question 2

Re: Historicon steppes theme: question 2

European addtions