Help with LF tactics

[76mm]

Would appreciate some tips on LF tactics. I've lost several games now because I'm down by about 20 points before the main bodies even join because my LF gets slaughtered.

While I generally try to avoid putting my LF into melee, sometimes my LF just don't seem to evade, so they get caught and slaughtered on a mass scale. I think I've been pushing them too far out in front of my main body, but I think there is more to it than that.

I am aware that poor quality enemy LF might tempt my LF to stick around and fight rather than evade, but this doesn't seem to be the issue, because usually the opposing LF is average, as is mine.

A related issue is that I don't understand evasion rules. In a just-ended battle, an enemy phalanx charged two of my LF, neither of which evaded. They both broke in melee, and the phalanx then advanced and caught another LF unit...one problem could be that my LF is too close together, but these battlefields are pretty crowded and it is often impossible to space them out. The "rules" seem to say that LF ALWAYS evade from HF, etc., but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Any tips appreciated, but may be used against you on the field of battle!

[Blathergut]

Use cheap stuff...slings...out front. They should always evade.

Javelins I keep close to the main HF to charge and pin enemy..uh...LF

But I also use the cheap stuff to charge and pin...nothing much will evade from slingers.

Not sure why your LF are standing to receive pikes. Doesn't make sense. Maybe something prevented them from evading?

[Morbio]

I give similar advice to Blathergut. Keep Javelin LF close to the HF - if it gets too far ahead it is in danger of being pinned by worse LF (e.g. the poor slingers) and gestroyed by LH, Cavalry of foot troops. Unfortunately this means that Javelin LF is only of use when the 2 lines get relatively close to each other.

The only 3 times when LF don't evade are;
1) They have already evaded
2) They are attacked by worse troops
3) A unit which has followed a routed unit finishes adjacent to the LF.

Personally, I think it is a flaw in the game where it penalises good LF and rewards poor LF.

[Paisley]

Case 3 applied in 76mms game against me, I think.

Poor lights being more useful than Superior lights is the silliest thing about this game. Badly armed lights (sling, bow) and all Poor quality lights should not be able to make frontal charges against STEADY better armed lights (javelins). Problem solved at a stroke.

[76mm]

When you say that troops wont' evade "worse" troops, what do you mean? Worse morale, or just any troops that probably wouldn't win against this LF? Also, I don't understand why sometimes my LF can charge other LF and sometimes it can't (ie, I can't even move next to enemy troops even though they are right in front of me)?

[76mm]

Javelins I keep close to the main HF to charge and pin enemy..uh...LF

But why won't the enemy LF evade your javelins??

[petergarnett]

The decision to evade is based upon whether the BG thinks it can win a combat - so you can pin enemy LF by attacking with your own. If the enemy has pushed it's LF far out beyond the MH/HF then they get hit by your MF/HF provided you kept them up with your lights.

Basic rule of thumb IMO is don't sent your LF too far from your heavies & retire behind the heavies if outnumbered.

[76mm]

The decision to evade is based upon whether the BG thinks it can win a combat

is this determination based on the same percentages that we see when looking to charge? if so I don't see how the BG has any idea of whether it will win, and therefore don't understand how we can guess whether a BG will evade?

[Morbio]

Yes, it is based on the percentage chance of success. So, if the chance of winning is greater than the chance of losing for a LF unit then it will stand, if it is the same chance (winning and losing) it will stand, if losing is greater than winning then it will evade. Hence the reason Poor slingers are selected - you know that enemy LF will stand and then my Horse or MF or HF will kill the pinned unit.

How would the unit know in the real world? That is a great question.... the answer normally given is that they can see the enemy unit and see that it is better armed or armoured and therefore it decides to run. This is fine when you have Javelin armed troops attacking sling troops, then it's easy to understand that they know they are going to get a pasting, so they run. Where the logic breaks down is when you have similarly armed units attacking, how do they know they are better troops to make the decision to run away? After all, they don't have 'superior' painted on their tunics. Well, the only way I can rationalise it is that they know that they themselves are 'poor' so they are going to run whatever. I can't find any sensible logic to explain how average LF decide to run.

Overall, it seems to me the evade logic is flawed for both cavalry and skirmishers.

I agree with the post that suggests that it should be harder, but not impossible, to successfully order poor troops to attack better troops. After all, if it was the other way round then they'd run away!

The only downside is that if this was the case then it would be virtually impossible to catch and kill LF skirmishers at all. The only way would to have picked similar troops when building the army. The only choice then would be to engage as quickly as possible so that missile troops can't attack. The alternative is that you stand there while the invulnerable LF kill you through attrition.

Of course, if they fix it so that LH (and cavalry too, I hope) can catch LF, and make it harder for poor LF to attack better troops, then all is fine

[rbodleyscott]

When you say that troops wont' evade "worse" troops, what do you mean?

They won't evade "equal" troops either.

[TheGrayMouser]

I wish this could be changed, I really dont like the use of the weakest units in game melee wise, being used as hunter killer combined arms troops...Slingers should only , well sling! I think if these troops actually had to test anarchy more harshly than current it would solve the issue...Noone will want to waste a slingers turn to try and pin another light when there is, say a 75% the unit will say "no" and do nothing further that turn...

[Blathergut]

Javelins I keep close to the main HF to charge and pin enemy..uh...LF

But why won't the enemy LF evade your javelins??

They will. That's the prob. Then your LF will pursue and be pinned/chewed up.

[petergarnett]

This has been debated a few times now in other threads - I think the designers are considering some form improvement but I don't know what.

[deadtorius]

problem is that back in beta days LF would run from everything which was no good as your LF could drive off the enemy LF and they never got caught. The current game play was a fix for that issue and at the time seemed like a good solution. Then some players found hey I can pin my enemies LF with my crappy LF and roll up something big and deadly to take them out for 2 AP a piece, thus making LF more of a liability than anything.
So we shall just have to wait and see if the devs have come up with a better solution but until then this is the best we have.