Troop Match Ups

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

All,
I am new to FOG and have few questions about match ups. I am used to DBM so I remember certain match ups were insane (Bow Vs. Blade). I have played a few games of FOG but have yet to understand how troops match up to one another in combat. Any advice?

[Polkovnik]

Well, the match-ups to aim for or avoid should be relatively clear from the POA tables. The best thing to do is think about a particular match-up (say Armoured Impact Foot, Swordsman vs Protected Offensive Spearmen) and look up the POAs for impact and melee. Also consider what would happen if one side or the other was disrupted or loses a base.
Whilst you're learning, at the start of each game (or beforehand if you know what armies you will be using) think through all the likely match-ups.
But as usual, the best way to learn is through playing.

Compared to DBM, there are a lot more possibilities, because of the multiple combinations of impact and melee capabilities and armour (not to mention quality).
For example, blades vs bow in DBM could be Armoured Impact Foot Swordsmen vs Protected Bow (easy win for the "blades") or Unprotected Heavy Weapon vs Protected Bow, Swordsmen (pretty much even at impact & melee, so match-up favours bow because they will shoot prior to melee)

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

You are correct in stating that one must play the game to know how troops will do in combat. I am still working my way through understanding the POAs so all is not clear yet. In a recent game (Byzentine Vs. Late Roman), my Kataphacts did not fare well Vs. light art and double ranked supported swordmen. This taught me the valuable lesson that exspensive troops aren't always worth it. Back to the books to study the POA.

[madaxeman]

Top line is that evens is a lottery, with a +1 POA you will win more often than not but it's still risky, but with +2 you will almost definitely win.

Each better morale grade is worth about half a POA.

POA advantages in melee are "better" than those in impact because you will typically fight 3-4 rounds of melee, but only one round of impact.

The "best" POA IMO is a difference in armour - easy to see, are never "lost" as a result of cohesion or rank losses, and always applies (unless one side has heavy weapons). Armour also has benefits both against shooting and in combat.

Most troops have some sort of weapon class for melee and impact, and irrespective of what the actual weapon is, they seem to quite often cancel each other out - another reason why armour is good, as quite a lot of troops in the game are "protected", so lose out to armoured opponents consistently.

Some POAs - spears & pikes especially - disappear once the unit loses cohesion or ranks, and suffer a double-whammy as some opponents can regain POAs "blocked" by spears and pikes at the same time. You need to consider their "post-disrupted" state when looking at the POAs for pike and spear - it can make these units very brittle.

[grahambriggs]

In DBM high factor (Bd vs Bd say or Sp vs Sp, Kn vs Kn) combats can take a long time, especially if the troops are superior. A major difference in FoG is that that doesn't happen that often. Combats between evenly matched hoplites can easily be over faster than those between evenly matched Psiloi.

There are some similarities between the "quick kill" troops in DBM and those in FoG that are good at impact but so so in melee (impact foot for example).

You'll find proper Roman legionaries very tough troops against foot in FoG - more than a match for Gallic warbands for example.

In addition to the PoAs, a key element is whether a troop type fights "normal" (in two ranks with one dice per base) or "high octane" (in one rank with two dice per base). The latter include elephants, knights, heavy chariots. The high octane troops can do fearsome damage as they are frequently on at least an equal POA but they are expensive, in small BGs and so hate losing bases.

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

You speak of high octane troops such as kn and el and it occured to me that when facing these troops I would be in trouble seeing that I have a cav dominate army. I started thinking about solutions to this match up. If my Byz cav are facing French Kn, would it be wise to double up my cav? Knights get 2 die per base correct? Cav only get one, so if I doubled up would I not have a slight advantage? Byz Cav can shoot and if I have rear supporting cav bow wouldn't I get a few extra die to throw not to mention a POA? I may have read it incorrectly so please correct me if I am wrong.

[azrael86]

[\quote=grahambriggs]
a key element is whether a troop type fights "normal" (in two ranks with one dice per base) or "high octane" (in one rank with two dice per base)
[\quote]

or "handbags", in the case of skirmishers. Probably the biggest immediate difference is that skirmishers are nothing like in DBM, LH who were pretty much immune to most foot have to keep their distance. LF even worse, finding that I couldn't charge a fragged artillery from behind the flank....

[rbodleyscott]

You speak of high octane troops such as kn and el and it occured to me that when facing these troops I would be in trouble seeing that I have a cav dominate army. I started thinking about solutions to this match up. If my Byz cav are facing French Kn, would it be wise to double up my cav? Knights get 2 die per base correct? Cav only get one, so if I doubled up would I not have a slight advantage? Byz Cav can shoot and if I have rear supporting cav bow wouldn't I get a few extra die to throw not to mention a POA? I may have read it incorrectly so please correct me if I am wrong.

Your cavalry would be best advised to give French knights a wide berth.

You can get as many dice if you double up, but you will still be on a worse POA. Essentially, unless you charge the knights in the flank/rear you will be slaughtered, and possibly even then....

This may seem harsh, but it was a Byzantine writer who described Frankish knights as being able to charge through the walls of Babylon.....

[philqw78]

You speak of high octane troops such as kn and el and it occured to me that when facing these troops I would be in trouble seeing that I have a cav dominate army. I started thinking about solutions to this match up. If my Byz cav are facing French Kn, would it be wise to double up my cav? Knights get 2 die per base correct? Cav only get one, so if I doubled up would I not have a slight advantage? Byz Cav can shoot and if I have rear supporting cav bow wouldn't I get a few extra die to throw not to mention a POA? I may have read it incorrectly so please correct me if I am wrong.

Most troops in FoG fight best two ranks deep. They are then almost alway deployed that way. These troops get one dice per first and second rank base in melee. (skirmishers then half this).
Mounted bows cannot shoot in melee, foot bows only shoot in impact.

Cavalry are normally only ever used one deep if they are bow armed and wish to evade.

Knights, Elephants and Chariots are the exceptions to this. they only count front ranks, but get 2 dice per base.

Even 2 ranks deep your cav will normally be disadvantaged against knights. They will normally have heavier armour. And their lance trumps a cavalry lance. Use the manouver of your cav to avoid a head on bash. Tempt him out of formation and hit him in the flanks. Or tempt him to charge then hit him in the flank, either with an intercept or the next turn.

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

I need to set up some skirmishes with friends so I can play out some of the troop match ups that my army will face. My thinking about Kn Vs Cav is that my bow might be able to disorganize the Kn making them harder to control and or manuever. As a player I am rather simple and direct. I suck at manuevering troops and thus I get nailed for it. I picked a Byzantine army because of the drilled nature of its troops. Oh well, more play testing is needed.

[philqw78]

As a player I am rather simple and direct. I suck at manuevering troops and thus I get nailed for it..

Take Knights. When you learn to manouver take lancer cav. lend your girly Byzantine archers to a friend or use them as a base to build something a bit more manly.

[ShrubMiK]

Ignore him, he's got a bit of a pe^H^Hlong thrusting weapon fixation!

Although you might want to look up "byzantine" in a dictionary, and then decide whether it fits well with "As a player I am rather simple and direct"

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

Although byzantine may mean complex etc... I wanted an army that was easy to control. Now add into the mix that I was able to buy all the lead for this army for around $80.00 and one can see why I took the path towards the byzantine maze.

I have an unpainted Norman army waiting in the wings, but I need to buy more knights to meet my needs.

As a history buff and student, I love the Byzantines, so playing them is a hoot:]

[ShrubMiK]

I'm not criticising...I'm gradually morphing my late Romans towards being able to field Byzantines, I like them too

I always wanted a Byzantine army when I was younger, but then DBx rules came along and bow armed cavalry became considerably less exciting so I never got round to it before.

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

well if you live in the US, I have some unpainted early Byzantine Packs from Essex. They should morph well with a late Roman army. I might paint them and sell them on ebay as I love painting up armies. I keep saying if the Byzantines fail me, or vice versa, then off to ebay they go.

[philqw78]

Try the Nikephorian Byzantines. They get some knights and lancer Cav. Or even better Komnenan. More heavier knights and Varangians.

[finnian3@yahoo.com]

I play a Nikephorian army, and I am not versed enough to rate it. I can say that it has Varangians, but the Knights are Norman Mercs and they are expensive. That said, they may be better then the Cataphracts that are listed. I need to play about 25 games with them before I can judge my ability to use them. As I said before though, if we don't perform well together then its off to ebay they go.

[expendablecinc]

All,
I am new to FOG and have few questions about match ups. I am used to DBM so I remember certain match ups were insane (Bow Vs. Blade). I have played a few games of FOG but have yet to understand how troops match up to one another in combat. Any advice?

If you are new to the rules ignore the tables in relation to attempts at good/bad matchups and play by first principle.

Knights dont like steady shiledwalls (defensive or offensive spearmen). If they are looking shaky that are fair game.
medium and light foot dont like fighting mounted or heavies out of terrain.
most things are going to go ok hand to hand vs massed archers.

If the rules are designed well this should work at least ok for you.
The rest you will only get a handle on by trial and error.

Anthony

[rbodleyscott]

All,
I am new to FOG and have few questions about match ups. I am used to DBM so I remember certain match ups were insane (Bow Vs. Blade). I have played a few games of FOG but have yet to understand how troops match up to one another in combat. Any advice?

If you are new to the rules ignore the tables in relation to attempts at good/bad matchups and play by first principle.

Knights dont like steady shiledwalls (defensive or offensive spearmen). If they are looking shaky that are fair game.
medium and light foot dont like fighting mounted or heavies out of terrain.
most things are going to go ok hand to hand vs massed archers.

If the rules are designed well this should work at least ok for you.
The rest you will only get a handle on by trial and error.

Anthony

And similarly, working on historical principles, Byzantine cavalry were crap against "Frankish" knights, as the Byzantines acknowledged themselves. And hence, as soon as they were able, they hired large numbers of "Frankish" knights (the Latinikon) to make up the deficiency.

The Alexiad of Anna Komnena is available in Penguin Classics and a good read. It details the weird and wonderful (failed) attempts by her father (Alexios Komnenos) to find a way to beat Norman knights. (e.g. Rolling weighted axles down a hill at them.)

Trying to beat them head on simply wasn't a realistic option.

[expendablecinc]

Although byzantine may mean complex etc... I wanted an army that was easy to control. Now add into the mix that I was able to buy all the lead for this army for around $80.00 and one can see why I took the path towards the byzantine maze.

I have an unpainted Norman army waiting in the wings, but I need to buy more knights to meet my needs.

As a history buff and student, I love the Byzantines, so playing them is a hoot:]

Play a late Byzantine army - with a fair bit of light horse adn frankish knights. You'll have a use for the first third of your norman army and the Byzantine army will still be manouverable but with a bit mroe bite.