Cavalry Effectiveness

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Morbio
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Cavalry Effectiveness

Post by Morbio »

I've been thinking hard about the effectiveness of cavalry and have a few suggestions to improve the game. These are all related to cavalry effectiveness against skirmishers (LF). Some of the suggestions could be considered optional and so I'd welcome feedback about the specific points. I'll add headings to make it easier to comment specifically. I welcome feedback from all and, if well received, I hope Slitherine will consider these suggestions for inclusion in a future release.

A little background information to help put these comments in perspective:
Horse speeds; Walk (3-4mph), Trot (8-10mph), Canter (10-17mph), Gallop(~30mph, modern horses have been clocked at up to 50mph for quarter mile). I appreciate that for horses of the ancient era, carrying a rider the speeds may be reduced.
Human speeds; Fastest ever sprint (anaerobic) (26.7mph), Sustained run (15mph - equates to 4 minute mile); Again, for ancient era carrying light weapons and the speeds may be reduced.
So, broadly speaking, a horse is twice as fast as a man and probably could sustain the speed for longer too.

In the notes below I'll use the following notation;
LC : Light Cavalry (LH and Camelry) - 4 MPs (I'm writing this from memory at work, so forgive me if Camelry is 3MPs - just include them with the HC)
MC : Medium Cavalry (Protected and Armoured Horse) - 4 MPs
HC : Heavy Cavalry (Cataphracts and Elephants) - 3MPs

The basic problems

Cavalry attacking Skirmishers (LF)
It seems totally unrealistic for cavalry not to be able to catch and engage LF. However, I do appreciate that LF has a role to play, so it shouldn't be so simple that if it is in range it is attackable because the LF would see the cavalry coming and would run away with a head start. So my proposal is as follows:
Basic Rule 1
If the LF are 2 hexes away they would be caught if they tried to run (probably by the 4th hex given horses are twice as fast), so rather than be caught running away with back to the enemy, they stand and fight.
If the LF are 4 hexes away they would not be caught, so they evade. the cavalry finishes the move on the hex that was occupied by the LF.

Optional Rule 1
If the LF are 3 hexes away they probably wouldn't be caught, so they evade. Optional Rule 1.1 The cavalry finish their move on the hex vacated by the LF. Optional Rule 1.2 The cavalry finish their move one hex further in the line pursuing the LF.

Optional Rule 2
If the LF are 3 hexes away they probably wouldn't be caught if they are efficient. A test is made which is biased in favour of quality and / or training, to determine whether they evade or fight. This represents the speed of spotting the danger, relating it to the officer, a decision being made and the troops reacting to commands. Highly efficient drilled troops would do all this much quicker than poor undrilled troops. If the test is passed the LF evade. If failed, they stand and fight. Optional Rule 1.1 and 1.2 could apply to the evade here too.

If it was desirable to try to be more selective then we could have different variations for LC , MC and HC to reflect the different speeds. So, for example, HC never catch 3 hexes and use optional rule 2 for 2 hexes (or maybe never catch at all) and LC always catch 2 and 3 hexes and use optional rule 2 for 4 hexes.

By use of optional rule 1.1 then it would still give LF a good role to play in slowing the advance of cavalry by limiting their rate of advance.

By implementing this rule a further rule would probably be required for the movement of LF. This new rule would be a test to see if LF follow orders when moving within melee range in front of cavalry. The factors that would affect this test are commander presence, LF quality and training, e.g. drilled superior troops are more likely to follow orders than undrilled poor troops. If they fail the test the troops go into anarchy status and do not move.

Cavalry bypassing Skirmishers (LF)
Again it seems unrealistic to me that skirmishers can stop or slow cavalry, particularly the MC, without engaging them. A line of cavalry is charging and you either stand and fight (ouch :shock: ) or get out the way. At the moment, it is as if they stand but no damage is taken. The proposal:
Basic Rule 2
If only LF are 2 hexes away and blocking the path of the cavalry (LC or MC only) then cavalry can move to all hexes behind the LF that they would normally reach (this is selected as a normal move display by clicking on the target hex). However, a test would be required to do so.
1st Test: To see if the cavalry follow orders to charge through the line. The factors that would affect this test are commander presence, troop type, quality and training. It seems reasonable to me that more armour, better quality and drilled are more likely to follow orders to charge through the line. For example, I can't see Alexander's companions refusing to charge through a line of slingers. If this test is failed the cavalry go into anarchy and refuse to move.
2nd Test: To determine whether the LF yield the ground and allow the charge to pass through. The factors that would affect this test are commander presence, LF quality and training and the troop type and quality of the cavalry. Better and more disciplined LF may resist harder. Better cavalry would be resisted less.
If the LF pass the test they stand and fight and normal melee rules are followed. If the LF fail the test there are 2 options, which could be determined by a percentage roll, or one options could be chosen to apply in all situations.
Optional Rule 3
The LF evade following normal evade rules. The cavalry move to their destination hex.
Optional Rule 4
The LF stand their ground and the cavalry move through to their destination hex. This could mean that the LF are now cut off from their force, and this could be a pro or a con to either side. Passing through the enemy is unlikely to occur without some cost to both sides. Since the purpose of the cavalry charge is to break through, not engage, then the damage to the LF should be reduced. Similarly, since the LF are not actively opposing the charge, i.e. they are not holding their ground, then they would not inflict full damage to the cavalry. In this situation I'd suggest that a fraction of normal damage be inflicted to both sides, e.g. 1/3 of normal melee damage. The best fraction could be determined by discussion and/or play-testing.

Personally, I prefer optional rule 4 because it seems more realistic and allows the defender to inflict some damage on the cavalry while yielding the ground without troops being engaged in a death-fight.

Another discussion point may be whether it should be possible for cavalry to pass through LF to engage troops behind them. My views on this are;
If LF have troops to their immediate rear then normal LF evade rules would apply and the cavalry attacks the unit to the rear. This is the current situation.
If LF have LF 2 hexes behind them then pass through (or is penetration a better word?) is allowed. The 2nd LF would evade (see basic rule 1) and the cavalry would finish on the desired destination hex.
If LF have non-LF 2 hexes behind them then pass through is allowed. The cavalry engages the non-LF in melee and the LF, which are now behind the cavalry, are considered engaged in melee on the following turn (consider it like a unit chasing a routed unit ending its turn next to LF - if attacked the same turn it evades, if not, it must engage the following turn).

I think this improves the situation for cavalry and yet still allows LF skirmishers to be effective, although in a different way. LF can still be used to slow advance, but with the cost of either taking damage (and giving it in return) or being engaged in melee by the cavalry. If optional rule 1 and 1.1 were used then it would slow cavalry advance and ensure that LF could never be forced into melee (except after an evade, as current rules) unless the commander choses to place them in a position where it may occur (i.e. 2 hexes in front of light or medium cavalry).

All thoughts welcome :)
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Post by TheGrayMouser »

Hi , you certainly put a lot of thought into this, and you have many interesting points.
I too have though of ways to make light troops less abstract as they are now but in the end this is after all a turn based hex game and I dont think there will ever be a solution for realism vs gameplay and abstraction in a way that satisfies everyone equally. ( I truly think skirmishing for max realism is only possible in a real time game)

My final thought is that perhaps light units when evading should take a cohesion test after they evade, if they fail they become disordered, if already disordered frag etc ( much like the GMT games, both board and pc where lights could alway evade but lost a step in cohesion until eventually being driven from the field via routing)
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Post by Xiccarph »

I am not sure how the current rules work, but the closer the light infantry are to the cavalry they are trying to evade from the more likely they are to be caught, however randomness needs to play a part as a fudge factor to take into account the issues that don't show up to the God's Eys View the player has. The idea of the cohesion test on evading is interesting and perhaps worthy of testing. I am thinking that light horse should be more effective against light foot, in general, than they currently are. JMHO. :wink:
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Post by Lysimachos »

Great work Morbio, and well documented!
I agree with you especially on all the considerations made speaking about the "basic problem".
I haven't fully understand all the implications of the chapter "Cavalry bypassing skirmishers", but it seems to me that also on this issue your ideas are basically correct.
The other much more simpler way I spotted some time before was just to reduce to 3 the movement points of LF.
Not so detailed as your observations, but still useful to give the game a bit more realistic approach.
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Post by IainMcNeil »

I think the simple solution is to make evade distances variable. If there was a range of +1 to -1 hex on normal movement then LF evaders could get caught by cavalry.

If pursuers also had a +1 -1 variance it woudl force LF to keep their distance from cavalry and light horse or risk being ridden down.

I'd like to allow LF to break off from HF though this is a change from the tabletop. Not sure about MF but maybe for consistency it would be good.
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Post by Lysimachos »

I'd like to allow LF to break off from HF though this is a change from the tabletop
I totally agree with you, Iain, 'cause it would add much realism.
No problem, for me, about changing the TT rules given the fact that is anyway a different, though related, game.
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Post by 76mm »

not sure if I follow all of Morbio's rules, but it certainly seems to make sense that the closer the LF is to the cav, the more likely they are to be caught!

to play devil's advocate, I don't know how much weight we should give to the rule of thumb that "cav is twice as fast as foot". while it certainly seems that horse should be significantly faster than foot, I seem to recall reading that in the zulu wars, the brits found that the zulus should outrun their cav, not in a sprint obviously, but they could cover ground more quickly due to the nature of the ground, zulu fitness, etc. Perhaps ancient light foot would be similar? [/url]
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Post by IainMcNeil »

Over long distances it is well proven that 2 legs are more efficient than 4, but I dont really care what the maths say. We need something that looks & feels right rather than trying to make it use real values. This is the core of FoG design. Forget the detail - look at the big picture.
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Post by Morbio »

Thanks to all for the constructive feedback 8)

I agree with Ian that maths shouldn't dictate policy and what seems right should. I only included the speeds to give a feel for the difference between the 2 units.

Regarding what feels right, the bit that I was struggling with most of all is the vision of javelinmen running up to cavalry that are facing them, throwing their javelins and then running away without any damage. I'm assuming that the range of an ancient javelin is something like 30m, so pretty close, and yet horse couldn't ride them down :shock:

One last question: What size does a hex generally represent? I'm thinking it's like 50m x 50m - yes, I know that's a square :wink:
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Post by deadtorius »

What if the charging cav could use any left over moves after it contacts the LF hex and the little buggers have run off instead of just going 1 hex forward, could the cav stop and any extra move hexes to its front hi-light and allow extra move.
In the TT game the cav would declare a charge, the lights try to stand or just bugger off, the lights move then the cav rolls its VMD and makes its full move allowed, contacting any enemy even if that enemy was not the initial target of the charge.
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Post by Morbio »

I think I understand what you are saying. Let me repeat what I think I understand and then you can tell me if it makes sense...

The cavalry attack the LF - let's say it moves 2 hexes.
The LF evade as current.
The cavalry can now be moved again by the player for the remaining 2 hexes. They can stand, move for position or engage anything in forward 2 hexes.

Is this correct?
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Post by batesmotel »

iainmcneil wrote:I think the simple solution is to make evade distances variable. If there was a range of +1 to -1 hex on normal movement then LF evaders could get caught by cavalry.

If pursuers also had a +1 -1 variance it woudl force LF to keep their distance from cavalry and light horse or risk being ridden down.

I'd like to allow LF to break off from HF though this is a change from the tabletop. Not sure about MF but maybe for consistency it would be good.
A lot of the difference between catching evaders on the TT and catching them in FoG PC is that the attacker can get close to the defender before making a charge so that differences in relative movement rates plus the limited variability in move distances during evades does make it likely that a faster attacker will catch a slower evader and introduce some chance that a slower attacker can still catch a slightly faster evader. The quantization of movement in the PC game requires that the attacker always start a significant portion of its movement (at least 1 hex, 20% of LH move) away from the evader so the evader has an unrealistic head start. One possibility would be to automaitically give a charger an extra hex of move when chasing an evader (or possibly to penalize the evader a hex), or else to make the variability in charge moves in the PC game larger than in the TT rules.

I think part of the reason that LF cannot break off in the TT rules is that usually the owner gets to make a conscious decision to not have them evade versus this being automated. So if the owner allowed the LF to get into a position where it is in combat, the owner should not be given an easy way to get them out. NOt sure if allowing it in the PC rules would be good or not. It would certianly make armies with lots of LF harder to break than they are now.

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Post by Mercutio »

I agree something has to be done. It just makes no sense to me that I have to rush archers or slingers at LH, archers or slingers, etc. to pin them
The whole point of light horse is scouting, skirmishing and chasing away other skirmishers. All cavalry seemed at least in what I have read to love to go after skirmishers. That is why even in the 1800's skirmishers retreated to the line when cavalry was on the way. If the skirmishers can't make it to a the main line or woods, they should be able to be caught.
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Post by deadtorius »

The cavalry attack the LF - let's say it moves 2 hexes.
The LF evade as current.
The cavalry can now be moved again by the player for the remaining 2 hexes. They can stand, move for position or engage anything in forward 2 hexes.
Yes Morbio that was the general gist of my suggestion. Just a thought to try and make it a little more like the TT
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Post by Mercutio »

iainmcneil wrote:Over long distances it is well proven that 2 legs are more efficient than 4, but I dont really care what the maths say. We need something that looks & feels right rather than trying to make it use real values. This is the core of FoG design. Forget the detail - look at the big picture.

While 2 legs are more efficient in energy expenditure, it is not so in speed and distance. No one has won a marathon vs a horse last time I heard. Perhaps you could elaborate as I am probably missing the context of the statement.
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Post by pawel »

If is more efficient in energy expenditure then is more effective on the long distance. look at this hunting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8
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Post by SirGarnet »

Map size is a key issue. The tabletop is not that big compared with a lot of the PC maps, and lights can be cornered and caught or evaded off. On the PC there is usually a lot more space to play with than on the tabletop, where the size is part of the balancing and limits how much troops can just shoot and evade directly away. TT LF can keep their distance from Cavalry - until they run out of room in a few turns.

If the charger is in charge range to start with, the +1/0/-1 (or more?) variable move echoes the TT rules and sounds like a useful idea (particularly given the table size issue).
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Post by rbodleyscott »

iainmcneil wrote:I'd like to allow LF to break off from HF though this is a change from the tabletop.
But this would make them even better, and they are already better than in the TT version for various reasons.
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