Leaders

[iversonjm]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the proper leader purchase for a 400 pt army is one LH IC.

Nothing else. You're better off spending the points on more units (remember that that TC can buy you 12.5 poor slingers and javelinmen)

The obvious corolary of this is that TCs/FCs are overpriced. Thoughts?

[rbodleyscott]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the proper leader purchase for a 400 pt army is one LH IC.

Nothing else. You're better off spending the points on more units (remember that that TC can buy you 12.5 poor slingers and javelinmen)

The obvious corolary of this is that TCs/FCs are overpriced. Thoughts?

What you say has some merit, because in the PC game generals do not have to be touching a unit to bolster its cohesion. (They do in the TT game).

On the other hand, they do improve the unit they are with by improving its re-rolls by one notch. However, given that in FOGPC you have at least twice as many units as in FOG TT, this effect is diluted. And there is the risk of several units dropping cohesion if the general is killed.

[batesmotel]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the proper leader purchase for a 400 pt army is one LH IC.

Nothing else. You're better off spending the points on more units (remember that that TC can buy you 12.5 poor slingers and javelinmen)

The obvious corolary of this is that TCs/FCs are overpriced. Thoughts?

I think it depends on the army. I do find that I definitely seem to buy fewer commanders in FoG PC than I do for FoG TT. I seem to go with more generals for armies that are heavily combat oriented as opposed to skirmishing with a little combat. One general seems to do fine for Bosporans or Parthians, normally an IC to minimize anarchy charges. For Seleucids I'm much more likely to take 2 or 3 generals and may or may not take an IC.

One big difference from FoG TT is that a commander is not required in order for a BG to regain cohesion. That is certainly one reason why fewer commanders seems to work. The use of a BG with a TC does provide a significant combat benefit although not as much as a TC with large BG in the TT version. A commander in the right place behind the line can certainly help 2-3 BGs with cohesion tests and hence help a line hold out against better quality or more numerous opponents.

Commanders may be overpriced but I haven't found it to be a big issue. (Unlike pikes which are clearly over priced ) On the other hand, given the greater effectiveness of missile fire in FoG PC and the ability to really concentrate fire, it may be that missile troops, especially poor ones, are under-priced. I certainly find I seem to use far more poor LF in FoG PC than I do in FoG TT.

Chris

[iversonjm]

What you say has some merit, because in the PC game generals do not have to be touching a unit to bolster its cohesion. (They do in the TT game).

On the other hand, they do improve the unit they are with by improving its re-rolls by one notch. However, given that in FOGPC you have at least twice as many units as in FOG TT, this effect is diluted. And there is the risk of several units dropping cohesion if the general is killed.

My analysis exactly. In addition, the ratio of points to units is off between TT and PC. In TT, the points for a TC buys you somewhere between .3 and 3 unit equivalents (depending on price), while in PC a TC will but you somewhere between .8 and a whopping 6.5 unit equivalents. Given the choice of a leader bonus to a unit fighting frontally or an extra unit or two (or 6), I'll take the extra units every time.

[iversonjm]

Commanders may be overpriced but I haven't found it to be a big issue. (Unlike pikes which are clearly over priced ) On the other hand, given the greater effectiveness of missile fire in FoG PC and the ability to really concentrate fire, it may be that missile troops, especially poor ones, are under-priced. I certainly find I seem to use far more poor LF in FoG PC than I do in FoG TT.

Chris

It ends up not being a big issue because nothing forces you to buy leaders. It does produce odd an unintended effects though. As for shooting, its really the attrition effects combined with the larger number of shooters that cause the problems. Shot for shot shooting is actually less effective in PC as you can't combine shots to proudce tests. In the end though, I agree that shooters need to get more expensive (although maybe not MF).

[batesmotel]

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the proper leader purchase for a 400 pt army is one LH IC.

Nothing else. You're better off spending the points on more units (remember that that TC can buy you 12.5 poor slingers and javelinmen)

The obvious corolary of this is that TCs/FCs are overpriced. Thoughts?

What you say has some merit, because in the PC game generals do not have to be touching a unit to bolster its cohesion. (They do in the TT game).

On the other hand, they do improve the unit they are with by improving its re-rolls by one notch. However, given that in FOGPC you have at least twice as many units as in FOG TT, this effect is diluted. And there is the risk of several units dropping cohesion if the general is killed.

As near as I can tell, commanders are not required at all to bolster in FoG PC, but only help with bolstering if they are adjacent to the BG attempting to regain cohesion. One thing they can do better in FoG PC is to apply their commander bonus to any BG in combat they are adjacent to, not just the BG they are with. In general I also think FoG PC maps tend to be bigger compared to command radius compared to normal TT games.

Chris

[rbodleyscott]

One thing they can do better in FoG PC is to apply their commander bonus to any BG in combat they are adjacent to, not just the BG they are with.

If this is correct, having several generals looks more attractive.

[batesmotel]

Commanders may be overpriced but I haven't found it to be a big issue. (Unlike pikes which are clearly over priced ) On the other hand, given the greater effectiveness of missile fire in FoG PC and the ability to really concentrate fire, it may be that missile troops, especially poor ones, are under-priced. I certainly find I seem to use far more poor LF in FoG PC than I do in FoG TT.

Chris

It ends up not being a big issue because nothing forces you to buy leaders. It does produce odd an unintended effects though. As for shooting, its really the attrition effects combined with the larger number of shooters that cause the problems. Shot for shot shooting is actually less effective in PC as you can't combine shots to produce tests. In the end though, I agree that shooters need to get more expensive (although maybe not MF).

See my other post about casualties generally seeming to be more important compared to cohesion on the PC compared to the TT. The biggest problem with shooting is the ability to mass large numbers of shooters on a single target BG due both to interpenetration and to the distortion effect of BG's having a one hex frontage compared to a 5 hex (at the worst) range. While I may run 7 or more LH BGs in a TT Skythian army, I certainly never expect to be able to mass all 7 of them against a single target BG. On the PC, however, I can easily take 7 LH BGs (which are the equivalent of 4 stand BGs on the TT) and easily fire them all at the same target with out half trying and certainly without having to surround the target which I would have to do on the TT to even have a chance of concentrating that much fire.

Note that on the TT, the frontage for a 4 stand LH BG in two ranks is a bit over 3 MU while mounted bow range is 4 MU. To get the equivalent of this on the PC, mounted bows should have a range of 1 or 2 hexes, not 4. Concentrated javelin fire isn't a real issue on the PC with a similar range restriction. So the design decision to have BGs fit in one hex is in many ways the source of missile fire being too effective.

Chris

[batesmotel]

One thing they can do better in FoG PC is to apply their commander bonus to any BG in combat they are adjacent to, not just the BG they are with.

If this is correct, having several generals looks more attractive.

This is why I tend to use multiple generals with my Seleucid lists. Quite helpful to have them in or behind a line of pikes to help it stand up to superior legionaries.

Chris

[rbodleyscott]

One thing they can do better in FoG PC is to apply their commander bonus to any BG in combat they are adjacent to, not just the BG they are with.

If this is correct, having several generals looks more attractive.

This is why I tend to use multiple generals with my Seleucid lists. Quite helpful to have them in or behind a line of pikes to help it stand up to superior legionaries.

Chris

Yes, I may stop putting them in the front rank. The only problem with that is that if you attack, at least one unit must attack without the general bonus.

On the other hand, my Pontic centre rarely attacks, so....

On the other hand, if he is in a rear rank, usually only 2 units will get the bonus, whereas if in the front rank, 3 units will. (Until he dies).

[iversonjm]

If this is correct, having several generals looks more attractive.

Not sure this is a big plus over TT. Remember in TT, attaching the general to a unit influences between 2-6 die rolls, depending on the number of files in action. In PC, its just the 2 adjacent units, for 3 die rolls max.

As for backing up your phalanx, I still think that you are better off buying two more pikes and outflanking the legions. You can use your IC to run back and forth behind the lines where necessary.

[Blathergut]

+1 for being adj to a commander is helpful...so I would want more than just an IC.

I've found taking them as LH (if you have that option) has been very helpful.

a) You aren't tempted into fighting with them.
b) Those good mounted troops (usually you only get 2 or maybe 4) can be exclusively for fighting.
c) They move around very quickly, in any direction, 5 hexes...woohoo!!
d) They are a lot cheaper! (No extra cost for the snazzy bodyguard).

The trick is passing the cohesion tests. Have the commander behind and rear support as well.

[batesmotel]

Not sure this is a big plus over TT. Remember in TT, attaching the general to a unit influences between 2-6 die rolls, depending on the number of files in action. In PC, its just the 2 adjacent units, for 3 die rolls max.

As for backing up your phalanx, I still think that you are better off buying two more pikes and outflanking the legions. You can use your IC to run back and forth behind the lines where necessary.

For a pike BG the commander is with, he would affect the 4 die rolls for the four attacks that the unit gets if fulll strength, so the same as attaching a commander to a BG of 8 pike stands in 4 ranks for the TT. In addition, if he is in the front line, rather than behind it, he will be affecting the cohesion test rolls for 3 BGs. If he is behind the line he can affect 2-6 BG cohesion rolls (usually 2-3) depending on the hex geometry without risking the leader in combat.

It might make sense to reduce the current costs for commanders by 50-60%. I'm not sure more than that would be justified.

Chris

[rbodleyscott]

Remember in TT, attaching the general to a unit influences between 2-6 die rolls, depending on the number of files in action. In PC, its just the 2 adjacent units, for 3 die rolls max.

Actually it would be 3 units if the general is in a line of units, and that is in fact up to 12 dice. (18 if MF archers being charged!)

[batesmotel]

Remember in TT, attaching the general to a unit influences between 2-6 die rolls, depending on the number of files in action. In PC, its just the 2 adjacent units, for 3 die rolls max.

Actually it would be 3 units if the general is in a line of units, and that is in fact up to 12 dice. (18 if MF archers being charged!)

He only affects combat re-rolls for the BG he is with. (Sorry if I was unclear.) He affects cohesion tests for his BG and for adjacent BGs which are in combat.

Chris

[batesmotel]

+1 for being adj to a commander is helpful...so I would want more than just an IC.

I've found taking them as LH (if you have that option) has been very helpful.

a) You aren't tempted into fighting with them.
b) Those good mounted troops (usually you only get 2 or maybe 4) can be exclusively for fighting.
c) They move around very quickly, in any direction, 5 hexes...woohoo!!
d) They are a lot cheaper! (No extra cost for the snazzy bodyguard).

The trick is passing the cohesion tests. Have the commander behind and rear support as well.

I find that I'm really fond of taking Bosporan horse archer cavalry commanders. That way they don't do anything stupid even if the lancers do . And he does provide rear support while still running away from most things. Haven't tried this yet with Seleucids but might be worth a shot (or maybe a poor camel archer commander. Runs away from even more things but wouldn't want to use him to backstop cavalry or cataphracts .)

Chris

[arsan]

He only affects combat re-rolls for the BG he is with. (Sorry if I was unclear.) He affects cohesion tests for his BG and for adjacent BGs which are in combat.

Chris

Hi!
i have a related question for the experts that gather at this post
According to the PC FoG rules
http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... tests.aspx
Inspired leaders should give a +2 to combat cohesion tests and field and troop commanders +1... to any friendly BG on its command range (not only adjacent... thats an extra +1).
Do you know if this really works as per the rules or not??
I think it doesn't as i don't see this bonus reflected on the summary display when combat cohesion checks are done
I see them on end phase rally tests... but according to the rules
http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... roups.aspx

They shouldn't be used on this tests but on the other (combat test)

So...or i'm very confused, or the rules are wrong or the game has a pretty important bug

Cheers

[petergarnett]

I've asked that question as well arsan & never had a definate answer.

[arsan]

I've asked that question as well arsan & never had a definate answer.

Hope we get one this time...because this is not a little quirk... it sounds like the whole cohesion test system is:
A- completely bugged
B- completely miss explained on the rules
Given that in any battle you test for cohesion like 37 zillion times its effect is pretty noticeable...
Not to mention its effect on the worthiness of inspired commanders: at 60 pt per IC, missing that +2 to tests on their whole command range looks like a HUGE reason not to get them...
Cheers

[batesmotel]

He only affects combat re-rolls for the BG he is with. (Sorry if I was unclear.) He affects cohesion tests for his BG and for adjacent BGs which are in combat.

Chris

Hi!
i have a related question for the experts that gather at this post
According to the PC FoG rules
http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... tests.aspx
Inspired leaders should give a +2 to combat cohesion tests and field and troop commanders +1... to any friendly BG on its command range (not only adjacent... thats an extra +1).
Do you know if this really works as per the rules or not??
I think it doesn't as i don't see this bonus reflected on the summary display when combat cohesion checks are done
I see them on end phase rally tests... but according to the rules
http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... roups.aspx

They shouldn't be used on this tests but on the other (combat test)

So...or i'm very confused, or the rules are wrong or the game has a pretty important bug

Cheers

Just played with this in Starter Army 3 with both sides run by me and with the details display up with extra details. (U and then H shortcuts).

The commander cohesion bonus correctly applies within his full command radius for cohesion tests from shooting, as is described in help.
The commander cohesion bonus is only applied to adjacent BGs and to the leader's for BGs for BGs taking cohesion tests while in combat.
I did not test cohesion tests for rallying/bolstering groups for cohesion but in this case the leader must also be adjacent to or with the BG for the bonus to apply according to the on line help.

Overall the best way to understand this is to take a scenario, run both sides yourself and turn on the display window. Some times details will scroll before you can read them but overall it does a good job of showing how the game is actually doing things.

Chris