Bug 1.1.2 - troops behind lights can now be shot at.

[keyth]

On the other hand, some people find skirmishers in FOG TT just a bit too hard to pin down.

Given the various advantages that skirmishers have in FOG PC that they don't have in FOG TT (e.g. firing by introduction/extraduction to super-concentrate fire) I think the fact that they can be caught by combined arms forces is actually quite a good thing once you become accustomed to it.

I am not convinced that it is in fact unrealistic in its overall effect.

For example, Ottoman akinjis (LH) suffered heavy losses historically when skirmishing vs Christian knights- how if the knights couldn't ever catch them?

I sort of agree that this is a good thing... it is good to be able to catch LF if they get too close, but I have had quite a few battles where there is a morass of LF (of both sides) crushed between the two main lines of foot. This doesn't quite 'feel' right to me. I'd be much happier if LH had a chance of catching them

[batesmotel]

The problem with pushing your skirmish line too far forward is the ahistoric rope-a-dope routine where you get attacked by LF you don't evad from only to be hit with HF and destroyed. When using velites and such, I'm afraid to send them more than two hexes away from the battle line and that won't keep archers out of range.

Deeter

But to play rope a dope, your opponent's main line presumably has to expose itself to fire through its own LF screen. So I figure this still works fairly well. Either you main line may be vulnerable or else your skirmishers may be if your opponent is willing to expose his main line in order to rope in your skirmishers. Of course with armoured Romans, I wouldn't worry too much anyway about skirmisher fire reaching them. Protected pikes (and the rare protected legionary) are much more likely to suffer against skirmisher fire.

Chris

[Examinondas]

I think the fact that they can be caught by combined arms forces is actually quite a good thing once you become accustomed to it.

I am not convinced that it is in fact unrealistic in its overall effect.

The actual system might be good for gameplay purposes (although I don't think so), but as far as I can see there is no logic in it:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a unit of poor LF archers will always evade when charged by a unit of velites. However, the same unit of archers will charge the velites if ordered to do so (ok, sometimes they will refuse, but many times they engage in melee).

How comes one situation is different to the other from the perspective of the archers?

[rbodleyscott]

I think the fact that they can be caught by combined arms forces is actually quite a good thing once you become accustomed to it.

I am not convinced that it is in fact unrealistic in its overall effect.

The actual system might be good for gameplay purposes (although I don't think so), but as far as I can see there is no logic in it:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a unit of poor LF archers will always evade when charged by a unit of velites. However, the same unit of archers will charge the velites if ordered to do so (ok, sometimes they will refuse, but many times they engage in melee).

How comes one situation is different to the other from the perspective of the archers?

I did not say that it was realistic in its nuts and bolts, only that it might not be unrealistic in its overall effect.

[batesmotel]

On the other hand, some people find skirmishers in FOG TT just a bit too hard to pin down.

Given the various advantages that skirmishers have in FOG PC that they don't have in FOG TT (e.g. firing by introduction/extraduction to super-concentrate fire) I think the fact that they can be caught by combined arms forces is actually quite a good thing once you become accustomed to it.

I am not convinced that it is in fact unrealistic in its overall effect.

For example, Ottoman akinjis (LH) suffered heavy losses historically when skirmishing vs Christian knights- how if the knights couldn't ever catch them?

I sort of agree that this is a good thing... it is good to be able to catch LF if they get too close, but I have had quite a few battles where there is a morass of LF (of both sides) crushed between the two main lines of foot. This doesn't quite 'feel' right to me. I'd be much happier if LH had a chance of catching them

I like the FoG TT Variable Movement Die roll mechanism better as a way to simulate skirmishers being caught by opposing enemy who may or may not be faster than the skirmishers. Failing something like this working in the PC version (where it would take some thought to implement due to the artifacts imposed by the hex grid), the current game mechanism is certainly better than skirmishers being completely uncatchable.

Providing some sort of player ability to specify a "skirmish" policy would certainly cut down on the gamey aspects of having lower quality skirmishers reliably evade while higher quality ones are easier to trap. Ideally the policy would be settable on at least a troop type granularity, i.e. separately for LF, LH and Cavalry, if not by individual unit, and would allow for policies such as "always evade", "never evade" or "evade if at a disadvantage" (like current game evasion with the rear charge bug fixed).

Chris

[Paisley]

I tend to agree. the game is more about overall effect than specific instance.

I'm not entirely happy with the light foot thing but I can't really see how it can be altered and not still be equally unsatisfactory in a different way.

I still say the way to fix the cavalry evade problem is to say only light horse evade but others break off if they lose a round of combat. At least then one's close order cavalry could actually be depended on to fight.

[keyth]

One thing that I do like (and hope doesn't get thrown out with the 'Shooting through LF fix') is units at higher elevation shooting over lower units. I was playtesting against the AI last night and had MF archers shooting at my LF archers from either side of a level one 'horseshoe' over the heads of the foot-sloggers at level 0.

It would also be good to attack units at a lower level that are not immediately behind another unit or woods.