Fatimid Egyptian pre 1074 800pts

[NZsam03]

New Field of Glory player. Designing a list before buying any figs
What do you think

4 Troop Commanders
1 x 4 Lancers (Cv armoured, average lancer swordsmen)
3 x 4 Mamluks (Cv armoured superior bow swordsmen)
2 x 9 Berber Foot (2/3 HF, average protected, d spearmen, 1/3 Lf, average bow)
2 X 4 Berber Light Horse (average bow swordsmen)
1 x 4 Bedouin Light Horse (average lancer swordsmen)
1 x 8 archers (MF, average unprotected bow)
1 x 4 crossbowmen (mf average unprotected Xbow)
1 x 6 Dailami (mf impact foot swordsmen superior)
1 x 6 Macemen (hf, average, protected, heavy weapon)

eveythings drilled but the berbers and the bedouin

I was think of using the Hf as a stationary base, mf as terrain troops (and flankers) and mounted to skirmish, and do flank attacks

So....

[bertalucci]

See Madaxeman's battle report from Burton

He's bonkers but good and is using Fatimid's

[madaxeman]

I think you need as many Dailami as possible, so 6+3 is good value.
1 unit of lancers is too few - they are punch in this army
Not sure the Bw or the XB are worth having, the army isnt wide enough to be able to spare any units to give these vulnerable shooters enough support in their (almost inevitable) position on a flank, and anyways 2 units of berber lancers will scare off most enemy LH.
The macemen might be interesting with teh Spears
Id drop the archers and XB and fill up on LH and LH archers and dailami, and consider swapping a Ghulam for a lancer

[NZsam03]

Thanks
What about this

4 TCs
1 x 4 Lancers (Cv armoured, average lancer swordsmen)
1 x 6 Lancers (Cv armoured, superior lancer swordsmen)
2 x 4 Mamluks (Cv armoured superior bow swordsmen)
2 x 9 Berber Foot (2/3 HF, average protected, d spearmen, 1/3 Lf, average bow)
2 X 4 Berber Light Horse (average bow swordsmen)
1 x 4 Bedouin Light Horse (average lancer swordsmen)
1 x 6 archers (MF, average unprotected bow)
1 x 8 Dailami (mf impact foot swordsmen superior)
1 x 6 Macemen (hf, average, protected, heavy weapon)

[madmike111]

I would rate the lancers as the worst unit in your army. Better to field more cav armoured archers, apart from being -1 POA at impact fight the same as the lancers in melee, are able to evade (if one rank deep) plus can shoot.

The archers are also better as they can soften up the target first.

[philqw78]

I would rate the lancers as the worst unit in your army. Better to field more cav armoured archers, apart from being -1 POA at impact fight the same as the lancers in melee, are able to evade (if one rank deep) plus can shoot.

The archers are also better as they can soften up the target first.

I disagree completely. Handled well cavalry lancers are the best troop type in the game.

[BlackPrince]

Phil

What are your tips for using lancer cavalry to their best advantage?

Keith

[philqw78]

My thoughts in no particular order.
Use their manouverabilty. Making sure they are not stood alone in front of something they cannot beat is the key. For this I almost always take an IC. The extra +2 across such a wide area for CMT is wonderful. Don't think you are less af a man for turning 180 and walking away from the pike phalanx.
Moving second is not a great problem because of the manouver. So IC and +4 PBI will normally give you terrain choice. Make it as open as possible. If you do not get terrain take small difficult rather than rough terrain, as heavy foot is just as bad as you.
LH is very useful for catching the enemy bow armed LH which can be a very big problem. Shooting is bad for armoured cav, another reason for the IC. Charge and charge with LH at the same time so you have a chance of catching something. Charge in multiple directions so the evaders my be forced across each other and into the path of other charges.
Take the easy part of the enemy and reinforce success, never reinforce failure. You can move quickly get out of the way and pour through the gaps you have made.
You will lose some BG. So what, the aim is to get the extra 5 points

[madmike111]

disagree completely. Handled well cavalry lancers are the best troop type in the game.

Any type of unit handled well can be the 'best troop type in the game'.

Still not seen any argument to support the superiority of lancers over armoured horse archers? Everything that the lancer can do the armoured horse archer can do better apart from getting that +1POA in clear terrain against some enemy troop types.

I tend to play historical/semi historical match ups so that means for an arab type army I fight lots of crusaders. cav lancers are basically worse than useless against an enemy made up of knights and spearmen.

[philqw78]

I fight lots of crusaders. cav lancers are basically worse than useless against an enemy made up of knights and spearmen.

Use your imagination, some wargamers have one I have heard. Fighting a bunch of pedestrians like the crusaders should be easy. They cannot react quickly enough to where the pressure hits. If you want to spend endless turns shooting in the hope that you will eventually fragment a BG well off you go. You could instead use your manouver, isolate a BG of Knights or Sp/XB, hit him in the flank, maybe also front, and let him have the -3 on CT for being beaten by lancers, 1 HP3B and already disrupted. Then pour the rest of your lancers into the hole created.
Or you could stand around shooting his spear in the hope that he doesn't throw up in pursuit and rape you. I'd have to throw up if raping a crusader though.

[rbodleyscott]

Tournament results indicate that, used skillfully, cavalry lancers are very effective indeed.

However, used less skillfully, they are a liability.

I find them beyond my skill level, and I am not a bad player.

So, until you are an expert, probably best to stick with mamluks.

(Incidentally, I was planning to take Komnenan Byzantines with armoured knights and cavalry lancers to Burton until I had them comprehensively tonked by my son's Fatimids)

[philqw78]

Tournament results indicate that, used skillfully, cavalry lancers are very effective indeed.

However, used less skillfully, they are a liability.

I find them beyond my skill level, and I am not a bad player.

So, until you are an expert, probably best to stick with mamluks.

(Incidentally, I was planning to take Komnenan Byzantines with armoured knights and cavalry lancers to Burton until I had them comprehensively tonked by my son's Fatimids)

Mamluks are for girls

[rbodleyscott]

Mamluks are for girls

True. Give us a kiss big boy.

[ShrubMiK]

>Everything that the lancer can do the armoured horse archer can do better

Including taking up more points that could have been spend on something else

>apart from getting that +1POA in clear terrain against some enemy troop types

You talk as if that's of no account :/ (And don't forget the -1 of cohesion test for losing to lancers).

[hazelbark]

Being down a POA at impact is a very risky proposition, especially if both are re-rolling 1s.

4 lancers to 4 Ghilman assuming both 2 deep.

The odds are the lancers should score 1 more hit than the Ghilman. That creates a -2 check likely. If the Ghilman disorder, then the path continues favoring the lancers who granted will slowly but still successfully grind to victory.

It is not a blow out granted, but not to be underestimated either.

Lancer Cav versus Knights is a lot tougher true. But the Ghilman aren't especailly eager for that impact/melee either.

[peterrjohnston]

Lancer Cav versus Knights is a lot tougher true. But the Ghilman aren't especailly eager for that impact/melee either.

The two together can work well. Use the ghilman to draw out the knights, and the lancers to hit the flanks. Can be hard work though

[Baluchi]

Hi all, I have a quick question the supporting archers in the 'Abid al-shira and Dailami battlegroups. Are they able to shoot through the two ranks in front of them as long as they are in range of an enemy target or do they have to somehow manouvere to the front of the battlegroup? How would this be done, 180 degree turn and wheel round 180 degrees? Or are they only used in the impact phase for supporting shooting?

[bertalucci]

Hi all, I have a quick question the supporting archers in the 'Abid al-shira and Dailami battlegroups. Are they able to shoot through the two ranks in front of them as long as they are in range of an enemy target or do they have to somehow manouvere to the front of the battlegroup? How would this be done, 180 degree turn and wheel round 180 degrees? Or are they only used in the impact phase for supporting shooting?

Yes they can shoot over the heads of their erstwhile comrades

[ShrubMiK]

Aren't those LF supporting archers? In which case, no they can't - they can only "shoot" in support when charged by mounted.

[NZsam03]

Aren't those LF supporting archers? In which case, no they can't - they can only "shoot" in support when charged by mounted.

They are light foot, and I think your right. Support shooting only in the impact phase, as bows can only shoot in two ranks