Conforming after impact

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:01 pm

Had a game last week where there was a dispute on conforming after impact. The positions are roughly those below. BG C charged BG B, contacting with a front corner. BG A is same side as BG B, and not contacted (I believe it was fragmented LH).

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
AAAAA CC
AAAAA CC
AAAAA CC
CC
CC

It was ruled that C could not conform to B because enemy BG A was blocking its pivot. Therefore they stayed in position until BG B could conform in its move.

The counter-argument was that C could use a combination of backwards pivots, forward pivots and slides to conform.

What should have happened?

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:03 pm

Diagram hasn't come out right. BG B was on the flank and slightly in front of BG B. BG C contacted B in the centre of its line with a front corner.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:38 am

I cannot imagine your situation from a such diagram. Perhaps a draw may help. Anyway, IMO conforming question are overestimated in their importance. Since you fight as your troops are conformed, what matters if they are not? Aesthetic?

timurilenk · Post by **timurilenk** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:05 am

marioslaz wrote:I cannot imagine your situation from a such diagram. Perhaps a draw may help. Anyway, IMO conforming question are overestimated in their importance. Since you fight as your troops are conformed, what matters if they are not? Aesthetic?

I cannot make out the diagram either, however I was present (but not playing in this game) and the way the things conformed (or not) was particularly significant with respect to other troops who could charge a flank or not according to conforming.

Sadly I cannot remember the exact disposition.

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:04 am

Perhaps I can help with a picture. We encountered such a situation ourselves yesterday.
Is there any conform here? Active Player is the carthaginian one (above). It was very important for the outer left BG of Hastati, if they threat the flank of the African Spearmen. They did after impact, but we weren't sure how to conform.

Actually for melee we left it all as it was after impact.

Click to zoom.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:12 am

I maybe being very dim but how do the 2 photos relate to each other?

In the top one, the left hand BG would not count as a flank charge since it has to wheel within 1 MU of the Enemy BG?

Or have the Carthos charged you and just contacted the rear base?

Sorry - I'm confused.

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:34 am

First picture is left, second picture is the same battleline at the right. Two situations with problems regarding conforming.
As I said, the carthaginian player is the active one and so has charged, yes.
No contact with the left BG.

Main question: How to conform?

@threatened flank
I forgot the 1 MU distance for wheeling, thank you.

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:17 am

Hopefully this explains it better.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:26 pm

Why didn't BG C step forward into BG A?

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:04 pm

BG A was too far away to be contacted by a step forward, but positioned so it blocked a forward pivot.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:05 pm

Pete

Does 'Sorry - I'm confused' relate to this topic or is this a general purpose statement?

(Is it the DBR'r in you that draws you like a moth to the flame to these micro-measurement of angles questions...?)

:)
Tim

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:58 am

Hi Alan,

If BGA is in the way of the conform you can't move it. If there is enough room in the other direction (to the right as we look at the diagram) C would conform in that direction. That might be quite a big movement.

Regards

Graham

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:00 am

Does 'Sorry - I'm confused' relate to this topic or is this a general purpose statement?

I find it to be a good all round general purpose statement!

Turning back to the original question, it does seem like it was ruled correctly - if you can't conform because of the presence of an enemy BG you don't conform at all.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:44 am

I was there too. The answer is in the pivoting. There is no reason why the pivot has to be about the point of contact. The pivot can be about the rear left corner, then followed by a slide into contact. This is in accordance with the rules about conforming by sliding and pivoting.

I saw another view of this one last week where the interpretation was that bases pivot and slide, not the BG as a whole. I hadn't considered this before, but couldn't see anything wrong with it . In the first of the two photographs, the impacting group would be staggered, but conform to all three opposing BG's it had contacted. Each of the three files conforming to the bases in contact by individual bases pivoting and sliding.

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:03 am

But after conforming, the BG must be in a legal formation. So there is no point in conforming single elements, isn't it?
Has anyone an answer regarding the situations in the photos? Any conform or no conform at all?

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:10 am

Stepping forward during a charge is legal. In photo 1, the conform would take the bases to the position they would have been if they had impacted head on and stepped forward, surely the intention of the rules as well as being legally correct.

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:05 pm

During a charge, yes. But conforming is for reestablishing legal formation and in many cases this would include bringing bases that stepped forward back in formation.
I think only conforming single bases instead of the whole BG isn't according to the rules then.

I don't understand what you mean, can you desribe what bases should be where? As I read it, the right file of spearmen (that with the general) couldn't be conformed with the centre file of romans, because of the other spearmen BG (that can't be conformed either).
So we ruled it with no conforming at all, because there was no possible full front edge contact and the passive players's BGs won't move under any circumstances.

Were we right or is there a possible conform in the whole battleline which I cannot see?

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:25 pm

I may have misunderstood the question. I thought it was the BG at the bottom that had to conform. Should it be the ones at the top? These clearly cannot conform.
In the second photo, only the ones at the bottom can conform.

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:22 pm

Just so I understand Graham and Rogers view -

If a BG cannot conform by pivoting on the point of contact it instead can pivot backwards on the other corner, slide, and then ADVANCE back into contact.

Is this correct?

Rogers suggestion of individual base conformation requires more though by my tired, befuddled brain......

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:25 pm

Just realised there may be some confusion in the diagram. The front of BG C is facing the near join of BG's A and B. Not sure if this makes a difference.