U-boats in the Mediterranean scenario

[gerones]

I think it should be allowed to the submarines to pass "under" the sea port straights (the same way they pass "under" the the surface ships) and this way it could be seen german u-boats in action in the Mediterranean scenario as historically happens. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterran ... _War_II%29

I think this addition would give to the Mediterranean scenario a new dimension, more challenging for the allied player and, as I have said above, more historical.

[JyriErik]

There ia a problem with portraying that in the game. Due to the strength of the currents, while submarines could get INTO the Med through the straits of Gibralter while submerged, they could only leave the Med through the straits if surfaced because their battery powered engines couldn't power them through. It wasn't until the snorkel came into use that it would have been possible to leave the Med. I suspect that that would be all but impossible to simulate in the game since you would require some sort of "one way street" mechanism.

Jyri

[gerones]

There ia a problem with portraying that in the game. Due to the strength of the currents, while submarines could get INTO the Med through the straits of Gibralter while submerged, they could only leave the Med through the straits if surfaced because their battery powered engines couldn't power them through. It wasn't until the snorkel came into use that it would have been possible to leave the Med. I suspect that that would be all but impossible to simulate in the game since you would require some sort of "one way street" mechanism.

Jyri

I have to say that it seems that you have really no idea about this since there were many naval bases in the Mediterranean sea from where the german U-boats could get supplies, refuelling and enhanced engines: La Spezia (Italy), Salamis (Greece), Pula (Italy), Toulon (France) and Marseilles ( France). Two U-boats flotillas were directly formed in the Mediterranean: 23rd in Salamis and 29th in La Spezia. So, they operate from bases in the Mediterranean sea but they could really came back to the Atlantic if they would have been ordered to. The article attached certainly says that none of them came back to the Atlantic theatre but no need was to resend them to the Atlantic since they were stationed at naval bases in the Mediterranean sea and they performed their missions in the Mediterranean scenario.

Let´s keep in mind that the U-boats in the Mediterranean scenario sunk many major Royal Navy ships (2 carriers, 1 battleship and 4 cruisers) and a lot of destroyers and merchant ships.

[trulster]

Watch Das Boot for an instructive guide to the pleasant crossing of the Gibraltar straits

Seriously, if this was implemented there should be some automated ASW attack against the uboat as if attacked by a destroyer, it was a risky affair.

[JyriErik]

It's basic math. The facts are that leaving the Med via the straits of Gibralter was impossible as long as the Allies controlled Gibralter. When submerged a Uboats maximum speed was about 7.6 knots for the type VII, but to run "silent" they had to go at about 2 knots. The speed of the incoming currents from the Atlantic were from 2-5 knots depending on the tides & time of year, the straits are about 25-30 miles long. If Uboats ran at full battery power speed it would take them about 7.5 to 9 hours to get out while submerged. The problem is that a Uboat could travel about 35 miles at 4 knots (the only info I have at hand on battery life), which means at that at 4 knots the batteries will last about 6 hours. At full speed the batteries won't last that long. Simple math says that it is impossible for Uboats to leave the Med while staying undetected and at full speed, the batteries would be dead before they were out. If anything I've presented is wrong, please tell me what it is that is wrong and and what the correct information is, but until then, I'm sticking with he facts as I've researched them. Wikipedia might have some information, but it's not the end all & be all of information.

The tangents about supplies, fuel, repairs and shipping sunk do absolutely nothing to refute the point I was making. The Med was a trap for Uboats in that once they got in they couldn't get out and that there's no way to simulate that in the game.

Jyri

I have to say that it seems that you have really no idea about this since there were many naval bases in the Mediterranean sea from where the german U-boats could get supplies, refuelling and enhanced engines: La Spezia (Italy), Salamis (Greece), Pula (Italy), Toulon (France) and Marseilles ( France). Two U-boats flotillas were directly formed in the Mediterranean: 23rd in Salamis and 29th in La Spezia. So, they operate from bases in the Mediterranean sea but they could really came back to the Atlantic if they would have been ordered to. The article attached certainly says that none of them came back to the Atlantic theatre but no need was to resend them to the Atlantic since they were stationed at naval bases in the Mediterranean sea and they performed their missions in the Mediterranean scenario.

Let´s keep in mind that the U-boats in the Mediterranean scenario sunk many major Royal Navy ships (2 carriers, 1 battleship and 4 cruisers) and a lot of destroyers and merchant ships.

[gerones]

It's basic math. The facts are that leaving the Med via the straits of Gibralter was impossible as long as the Allies controlled Gibralter. When submerged a Uboats maximum speed was about 7.6 knots for the type VII, but to run "silent" they had to go at about 2 knots. The speed of the incoming currents from the Atlantic were from 2-5 knots depending on the tides & time of year, the straits are about 25-30 miles long. If Uboats ran at full battery power speed it would take them about 7.5 to 9 hours to get out while submerged. The problem is that a Uboat could travel about 35 miles at 4 knots (the only info I have at hand on battery life), which means at that at 4 knots the batteries will last about 6 hours. At full speed the batteries won't last that long. Simple math says that it is impossible for Uboats to leave the Med while staying undetected and at full speed, the batteries would be dead before they were out. If anything I've presented is wrong, please tell me what it is that is wrong and and what the correct information is, but until then, I'm sticking with he facts as I've researched them. Wikipedia might have some information, but it's not the end all & be all of information.

The tangents about supplies, fuel, repairs and shipping sunk do absolutely nothing to refute the point I was making. The Med was a trap for Uboats in that once they got in they couldn't get out and that there's no way to simulate that in the game.

Jyri

I only was trying to say to you that more than 60 german subs operated in the Mediterranean scenario during the WW2. Certainly, once deployed in the Mediterranean sea it was a very risky operation to came back to the Atlantic because of the british RAF and RN presence in Gibraltar before Torch and because both USAF and RAF presence in both Gibraltar and North Africa after Torch. I´m agree with you at this point.
But this submarines could tecnically leave the Mediterranean if they would have been ordered to. As I told you in the last post, there were several naval bases along the Mediterranean sea from which the subs could take more ammunition (torpedos), refuel and charge their batteries. Keeping this in mind, the submarines could technically leave the Mediterranean sea via Gibraltar the same way that they had entered the Mediterranean sea via Gibraltar from their bases in France (Lorient, Brest, etc) but for the reasons pointed above this was almost suicidal.

So you don´t say anything wrong about the impossibility of the german subs to leave the Mediterranean sea IN CASE that there wouldn´t have been any naval bases in the Mediterranean sea for them to refuel.

Here you have the links for the u-boats flotillas operating in the Mediterranean sea and sub types they operated:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8895
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8889
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8896
As you can see in the links showed 3 Kriegsmarine u-boats flotillas were formed in the Mediterranean sea (one of them in Constanta, in the Black Sea!)

And finally, for your information, here is a link with information of the Regia Marina submarines (more than thirty italian submarines) operating from Bourdeaux (France) naval base in the Battle of the Atlantic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM
In this article among other things is mentioned the following: "In 1940, all twenty-eight Italian submarines which were to be based at BETASOM initially had to sail from bases on the Mediterranean Sea and transit the Straits of Gibraltar to reach the Atlantic Ocean. All twenty-eight did this successfully and without incident"
So, all of this significant submarine italian force crossed the Gibraltar Strait with no losses.

[Clark]

It's basic math. The facts are that leaving the Med via the straits of Gibralter was impossible as long as the Allies controlled Gibralter. When submerged a Uboats maximum speed was about 7.6 knots for the type VII, but to run "silent" they had to go at about 2 knots. The speed of the incoming currents from the Atlantic were from 2-5 knots depending on the tides & time of year, the straits are about 25-30 miles long. If Uboats ran at full battery power speed it would take them about 7.5 to 9 hours to get out while submerged. The problem is that a Uboat could travel about 35 miles at 4 knots (the only info I have at hand on battery life), which means at that at 4 knots the batteries will last about 6 hours. At full speed the batteries won't last that long. Simple math says that it is impossible for Uboats to leave the Med while staying undetected and at full speed, the batteries would be dead before they were out. If anything I've presented is wrong, please tell me what it is that is wrong and and what the correct information is, but until then, I'm sticking with he facts as I've researched them. Wikipedia might have some information, but it's not the end all & be all of information.

The tangents about supplies, fuel, repairs and shipping sunk do absolutely nothing to refute the point I was making. The Med was a trap for Uboats in that once they got in they couldn't get out and that there's no way to simulate that in the game.

Jyri

I only was trying to say to you that more than 60 german subs operated in the Mediterranean scenario during the WW2. Certainly, once deployed in the Mediterranean sea it was a very risky operation to came back to the Atlantic because of the british RAF and RN presence in Gibraltar before Torch and because both USAF and RAF presence in both Gibraltar and North Africa after Torch. I´m agree with you at this point.
But this submarines could tecnically leave the Mediterranean if they would have been ordered to. As I told you in the last post, there were several naval bases along the Mediterranean sea from which the subs could take more ammunition (torpedos), refuel and charge their batteries. Keeping this in mind, the submarines could technically leave the Mediterranean sea via Gibraltar the same way that they had entered the Mediterranean sea via Gibraltar from their bases in France (Lorient, Brest, etc) but for the reasons pointed above this was almost suicidal.

So you don´t say anything wrong about the impossibility of the german subs to leave the Mediterranean sea IN CASE that there wouldn´t have been any naval bases in the Mediterranean sea for them to refuel.

Here you have the links for the u-boats flotillas operating in the Mediterranean sea and sub types they operated:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8895
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8889
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=8896
As you can see in the links showed 3 Kriegsmarine u-boats flotillas were formed in the Mediterranean sea (one of them in Constanta, in the Black Sea!)

And finally, for your information, here is a link with information of the Regia Marina submarines (more than thirty italian submarines) operating from Bourdeaux (France) naval base in the Battle of the Atlantic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM
In this article among other things is mentioned the following: "In 1940, all twenty-eight Italian submarines which were to be based at BETASOM initially had to sail from bases on the Mediterranean Sea and transit the Straits of Gibraltar to reach the Atlantic Ocean. All twenty-eight did this successfully and without incident"
So, all of this significant submarine italian force crossed the Gibraltar Strait with no losses.

As a practical matter, could this be something that was easily coded into the game?

There are a few different options:

• Subs are allowed to go through port hexes without penalty.
  
  Subs are allowed to go one direction through a port hex, but not the opposite direction.
  
  Subs are allowed to go both ways through a port hex, but have to face a random ASW attack going one direction.
  
  Subs are allowed to go both ways through a port hex, but have to face a random ASW attack going either direction.

You could also make each option contingent on certain tech advances on both sides, where a sub could go through the port hex without penalty if it had a high enough submarine tech advancement, which could be counterattacked by a high enough ASW tech advance.

It all sounds nice, but I have no idea how hard it would be to program that.

[JyriErik]

What does the amount of Uboats in the Med have to with the the possibility of them getting out? Since the Germans had no bases in the Straits of Gibralter and their batteries didn't have the juice to get the sub entirely through the straits, submerged, that seems to count as impossible to me.

I will admit that my knowledge of the Italian submarine fleet is almost nil. Still, the British Gibralter garrison wasn't a priority after the fall of France as every available ship, plane & man was kept in England to stop the expected German invasion and the few that weren't went to 8th Army to defend Egypt so it's possible they were able to sneak by surfaced in small groups in the proper conditions.. By 1941, however, there were major British naval and air assets in Gibralter. The Germans lost 9 Uboats sunk and 10 had to abort the attempt to enter. The British force in Gibralter achieved that against subs entering with the current. Since German subs were superior to their Italian counterparts, and seeing that according to the article, no subs exited after 1940, and that Allied ASW got better as the war went on, the only results would have been a slaughter of any subs trying a return trip.

Jyri

And finally, for your information, here is a link with information of the Regia Marina submarines (more than thirty italian submarines) operating from Bourdeaux (France) naval base in the Battle of the Atlantic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BETASOM
In this article among other things is mentioned the following: "In 1940, all twenty-eight Italian submarines which were to be based at BETASOM initially had to sail from bases on the Mediterranean Sea and transit the Straits of Gibraltar to reach the Atlantic Ocean. All twenty-eight did this successfully and without incident"
So, all of this significant submarine italian force crossed the Gibraltar Strait with no losses.

[gerones]

What does the amount of Uboats in the Med have to with the the possibility of them getting out? Since the Germans had no bases in the Straits of Gibralter and their batteries didn't have the juice to get the sub entirely through the straits, submerged, that seems to count as impossible to me.

I have to say again that the germans had bases in Western Mediterranean sea at Toulon and La Spezia from which they could refuel, repair, charge their batteries, etc.. So the same way, they have entered in the Mediterranean from the Atlantic (submerged or not) they could leave the Mediterranean sea (submerged or not) and they would have done if they would have been ordered to. So you can´t say it was impossible for the german submarines to leave the Mediterranean sea. The fact is that for the german submarines leaving the Mediterranean was, as you certainly says, a very risky operation but it was as risky as entering in from the Atlantic (I mean before Torch). This is obvious.

Let´s keep in mind that in CEAW we can´t simulate everything and if the submarines in WW2 had a range of 4.600-4.900 km in WW2 with the CEAW hex map scale the submarines would be out of fuel in 6-7 turns moving them but as we see in CEAW they stay in the seas without refueling at port for years. The same could be applied for the rest of the naval units.

As you know it has been in CEAW GS when it has been made possible to the submarines to pass "under" the surface ships and with your points about limitations of the subs when submerged then it shouldn´t be allowed to the subs to pass "under" a surface ship unit (theorically formed by a large number of surface ships) when this unit is positioned in a strait, e.g. English Channel. For the same reasons you have defended, then it shouldn´t be allowed this kind of submarine movements in CEAW GS... So if it´s allowed in GS to the subs to pass "under" the surface ships in the straits then I think it should be allowed for the same reason to a submarine to pass "under" the strait port.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here is info about the German subs in the Med:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterran ... t_Campaign

It seems that Gibraltar was a considerable obstacle for the subs when they entered the Med. The article also said that not a single sub left the Med and re-entered the Atlantic.

So having a one way move of subs into the Med would be the most accurate thing. Subs entering should be automatically attacked by the British naval unit occupying the Gibraltar port. That would simulate the losses when trying to pass Gibraltar.

But it's quite tricky coding to make such code so do we really need it for accuracy? We have similar situations with the port in Messina, Copenhagen, Istanbul etc. blocking naval movement (including subs). Was it possible to even pass these obstables?

[pk867]

Trying to implement will be hard. The article Stauffenberg pointed out would have only a 5 step German U-boat starting in Dec 1941, and not earlier. Also the German player could only add 3 steps only in 1942, 3 more in 1943, and finally another 3 more in 1944. They could not be repaired or upgraded since few new boats arrived in the Med. If the game wanted to be historically accurate.
This is better simulated by the Italian player building more sub units if that player desires.

[esde56]

GS is evidentially about creating strategic/operational decision points within a playable (& programmable) and fun game framework of the broad brush strokes of WW2 ETO. The possibility of permitting the Axis to send SS to the Med in limited numbers is obviously a historically valid one and an interesting decision point of itself. Respectfully, simply having the Italians build more SS is actually quite a different ‘kettle of fish’ altogether.

Perhaps the simplest (assuming it can be readily incorporated into the software) option is to permit the Axis to move x1 German SS only into the Med, as of the start of 1942 but prohibit it from ever leaving. This would recreate the historical decision point to aid the Italians (& increasing the threat to the Allies thereby) but oblige the Germans to maintain its repairs (or have it wither) whilst recognising that the SS is forever ‘lost’ from the Atlantic campaign.



Stephen

[BuddyGrant]

Interesting Wiki info, 76 Uboats sent, and 62 of these were lost. 449,206 tons of Allied shipping losses, along with 24 warships lost in the Med.to Uboats. None of the Uboats that entered ever left the Med.

Perhaps the GE Uboats would not have done quite so poorly if Malta was defeated, but it does not seem to me like allowing GE Uboats into the Med is a worthwhile expenditure of programming time. Never mind how hard it was getting through Gibraltar, the game does not account for low water depth and clearness, two serious issues for submarines stationed in the Mediterranean.

Perhaps it would be okay having 1 GE sub spawn there in 1942 to represent the GE Uboat presence, but I'd hate to have options for lots of German subs in the Med.

[gerones]

Perhaps it would be okay having 1 GE sub spawn there in 1942 to represent the GE Uboat presence, but I'd hate to have options for lots of German subs in the Med.

No need to worry about for lots of german subs in the Med. That would mean less convoy attacks in the Atlantic and that´s not good for the germans.

[metolius]

Another possible solution to this would be something along the lines of what is done for sea transport and invasion. For example, Germany could have 1 'transit' point that could be used to move a u-boat through a port that otherwise blocked a route e.g. Gibraltar, the Bosporus, etc. These points would recharge VERY slowly e.g. one per year, perhaps. Exceeding that limit could be done, but it would be very expensive e.g. 50 PPs, 150 PPs, etc.

Italy might start with 1 point, too, but have an even slower recharge e.g. 1 point every two years, with the same penalties.

The Allies and Russia could probably get approximately same treatment, which would allow the Russians to move their sub out of the Baltic and/or the Allies to move subs into the Baltic. I'm not sure how 'historical' that would be, but it probably wouldn't change the course of the war much, either way.

[metolius]

I think it would be interesting to add an additional Mediterranean convoy into the mix, particularly if the u-boats can enter the Med. Something that started at the Suez and ended at Gibraltar, or perhaps continued all the way to England. Not too big – perhaps 10-40 PPs? More or less depending on whether these were extra PPs, or come at the expenses of existing PP streams.

Obviously, it would be vulnerable to Axis attack, BUT the Axis would be obliged to attack it, perhaps with air and/or with their u-boats (German or Italian).

It would give the British fleet something more historical to do the bombard the shore of Egypt/Libya, which is what they mostly seem to do. Historically, there was a lot of shipping moving around in the Med in various directions, and it would be interesting to add some flavor of that.

[esde56]

Is it not the case that the Allies ceased sending general supply convoys to the UK via the Med, soon after the Italians entered the war? I cannot claim any special knowledge on this topic but I do recall seeing a map of Allied worldwide WW2 convoy routes, which noted the routes via the Med to the UK, as "abandoned".

On the SS front, methinks (FWIIW) that it is as perfectly reasonable (within the broad sweep of WW2 historicity) to exclude all Italian naval forces from leaving the Med, as it is to permit the Germans to despatch a single SS fleet into the Med.

Whilst off topic per se (apologies) but as Med convoys has been raised ...
Perhaps of far more import would be the ability for unchallenged surface fleets to have the ability to blockade island port/city/RP centres. E.g. if 2 major surface fleets (BB/CV) are adjacent to an island port, that port/city/RP centre should possibly have reduced and/or reducing supply abilities to rebuild a unit therein (or if it is easier to programme into the software, reducing the effectiveness of the unit). How are such isolated islands receiving their supplies? Admittedly, a large island like Crete would be able to produce sufficient food to feed its unit but where is the POL/munitions (& perhaps AFVs) coming from? This would be even more important for an island such as Malta. The UK performed several major convoy (increasing well protected by fleet units) operations to keep Malta supplied. If they had not, Malta would have fallen. In game terms, it is easiest (& quite sensible) to assume that sufficient (intrinsic) shipping is reaching an island to keep it supplied. However, if a couple of major surface fleets started patrolling the local waters, such shipping would be interdicted. Therefore, it would be incumbent upon the opposing player to break the blockade before the supply (or effectiveness) levels became seriously low: by attacking those fleets and forcing at least 1 enemy fleet to withdraw. Thus the appropriate power projection of surface fleets to interdict supplies (rather than just continually bombarding) would be established vis a vis isolated islands: using Malta as an example, Allied fleets challenging (& forcing the blockading Axis fleet/s to withdraw) would reopen the intrinsic shipping supply lines or could even notionally simulate a major intrinsic convoy operation. Food for thought perchance?

Kind regards

Stephen