Historicon "Steppes" theme: crowd sourcing questio

[babyshark]

The Theme at Historicon this July will be "steppe armies and the peoples who fear and loathe them." Or something like that. I am looking for a little help from the crowd in deciding how it should be run and which armies to include. I reserve the right to take or ignore any advice, no matter how sensible it might be; the final decisions will be mine. With that said . . . .

My initial plan is to divide the tournament into "steppes" and "civilized" categories, and award a prize for the best in each category, as well as to keep track of which side wins overall. Will the forces of right and good triumph, or will they be swept away in spray of blood and gore?

First things first, I need to decide which armies qualify as the steppes side of the equation. The settled peoples they invaded will count as the civilized side. To be included in the theme, a steppe army must 1) come from the steppes, 2) have invaded "civilization" as a very serious threat, not a mere pest. My starting list is as follows:

Cimmerian
Skythian or Saka
Early Sarmatian
Western Hunnic
Hepthalite Hun
Early Ostrogothic
Avar
Early Bulgar
Western Turkish
Mongol Invasion
Magyar
Seljuk Turk
Ilkhanid Mongol
Cuman
Tatar
Early Horse Nomad
Later Horse Nomad
Mongol Conquest

People may note right away the lack of Timurid. My thinking is that they mostly invaded other horsey peoples, rather than civilizations. I await your input.

Marc

[Scrumpy]

Early Bulgars ?

[pcelella]

So how do you think you might run the match ups? Would the tournament be a straight Swiss format, or would every round also have steppe armies always against the non-steppe armies? The difficulty with that though is to make sure that approximately equal numbers of both types of armies show up.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

[batesmotel]

The Theme at Historicon this July will be "steppe armies and the peoples who fear and loathe them." Or something like that. I am looking for a little help from the crowd in deciding how it should be run and which armies to include. I reserve the right to take or ignore any advice, no matter how sensible it might be; the final decisions will be mine. With that said . . . .


People may note right away the lack of Timurid. My thinking is that they mostly invaded other horsey peoples, rather than civilizations. I await your input.

Marc

The Timurid list also covers Babur who founded the Moghul empire in India so I would think that would count as having been a serious and successful threat to civilized people even if you have some doubts about who Timur himself fought.

Chris

[batesmotel]

The Pechenegs probably merit inclusion as a serious threat to the Byzantines and Rus.

The Liao might well qualify as having been a serious threat to the Chinese to be included.

Chris

[dave_r]

Parthian.

Possibly Bosporan.

[babyshark]

Parthian.

Possibly Bosporan.

Don't the Parthians count as "civilized"? I was thinking to put them on that side of the Theme, as they were attacked by the Skythians. Same question for the Bosporans.

[babyshark]

The Timurid list also covers Babur who founded the Moghul empire in India so I would think that would count as having been a serious and successful threat to civilized people even if you have some doubts about who Timur himself fought.

Chris

Interesting point. That would add Timurid, but not Black Sheep or White Sheep Turcoman. Hmm.

Marc

[babyshark]

So how do you think you might run the match ups? Would the tournament be a straight Swiss format, or would every round also have steppe armies always against the non-steppe armies? The difficulty with that though is to make sure that approximately equal numbers of both types of armies show up.

Peter C

The notion is to do steppe v. settled each round. I would reduce the risk of an imbalance by lining up a few people who could bring armies on both sides. Of course, there is also a risk of a skill imbalance, whether or not the numbers work out. Any opinions on what to do if all the top players show up with, say, civilized armies?

Marc

[babyshark]

Early Bulgars ?

Added.

Marc

[dave_r]

Don't the Parthians count as "civilized"? I was thinking to put them on that side of the Theme, as they were attacked by the Skythians. Same question for the Bosporans.

Both opposed the Romans, who were generally recognised as the civilised nation of the time.

Parthians and Bosporans are largely, just later Skythians, so if you include Skythians...

[batesmotel]

Don't the Parthians count as "civilized"? I was thinking to put them on that side of the Theme, as they were attacked by the Skythians. Same question for the Bosporans.

Both opposed the Romans, who were generally recognised as the civilised nation of the time.

Parthians and Bosporans are largely, just later Skythians, so if you include Skythians...

I would certainly consider the Parthians to be civilized along with the Sassanian Persians. While they were both major opponents of the Romans, neither was truely a steppe based culture. the Bosporans are also not truely a steppe based culture although they would count as a more borderline case in terms of combining elements of steppe culture and civilized in terms of the cities in the Crimea and around the Sea of Azov.

[dave_r]

I would certainly consider the Parthians to be civilized along with the Sassanian Persians. While they were both major opponents of the Romans, neither was truely a steppe based culture

Depends how you define steppe based culture I suppose...

[babyshark]

I would certainly consider the Parthians to be civilized along with the Sassanian Persians. While they were both major opponents of the Romans, neither was truely a steppe based culture

Depends how you define steppe based culture I suppose...

For purposes of this event, steppe culture is defined as "hordes of nasty horse-riders coming screaming out of the vast empty unknown, bent on rapine and destruction."

Marc

[batesmotel]

I would certainly consider the Parthians to be civilized along with the Sassanian Persians. While they were both major opponents of the Romans, neither was truely a steppe based culture

Depends how you define steppe based culture I suppose...

The Parthians were a settled culture, not a nomadic one. While they probably originated as a ruling class with steppe origins, for most or all of the period covered by the list they were not beyond the pale of civilization and they seem to have been an established state showing much continuity with Achaemenid Persia and the Seleucids in terms of their material culture and social organization. Unlike most nomad nations, the Parthians had cities to be defended and a capital to be fought over. The fact that the army is strongly based around mounted archers doesn't make it a steppe army even if it might qualify it as a girly LH army .

Chris

[dave_r]

So you equate Steppe with Nomadic culture? Not quite the same thing.

Skythians had settlements, just nobody reached them. Parthians had Ctesiphon within reach of the Romans, Skythians didn't have their settlements in reach of the Persians.

Largely depends whether Marc defines Steppe Culture as the way they fought or with the way they lived.

[ethan]

I would define the "steppe" as just that - the large area of Central and Eastern Asian. I think the temptation to include anyone who is a "LH army" as steppe is not a good one. So armies originating in the modern states of Ukraine, much of Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Mongolia and non-Chinese in Northern China would be the mainstays. Some of the other parts of the Caucus and Caspian probably are in there as well.

I wouldn't include Timur as he is largely an Afghan/Pakistan warlord that is a descendant of the steppes but does not himself have a clear steppe origin.

[hazelbark]

I would restrict more strongly. We can't be too broad.

For instance if you let in Timur. Who was really a 2nd generation and had an empire. Then you let in his opponents including the Ottomans.

You let in the Parthians (who were not steppe) and you get his opponents the Republican Romans.

So you end up only excluding the british isles, Africa and certain iberian, French and Italian armies.

Might as well have an open.

I would say limit the geography to north of the caucus and Danube, West of the Rhine, north of the Oxus/himaylas and north of either the Yellow River or Yangtze.

[ethan]

I agree with Hazelbark here, part of the point of doing this is to get some different armies on the table than usual.

[babyshark]

Parthians will get in, but on the "civilized" rather than the "steppe" side. For purposes of this Theme, steppe army is defined as: 1) having a nomadic life on the steppes, and 2) invading non-steppe peoples.

Are there other suggestions for armies that I missed? Or have included in error?

Marc