Catalan Company 800 Pts

chrisrivers13 · Post by **chrisrivers13** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:01 pm

4 xTC
4 x 8 Almughavars (Off Sp)
1 x 6 Almughavars (Off Sp)
1 x 4 Cavalis Alforrats (Cv, Arm, Sup, Lancers)
1 x 8 Greek Arches (LF, Poor, Bw)
3 x 4 Albanian LH
2 x 6 Crossbowmen (drilled)

800 AP

I am thinking deploying the skirmishers first, then the Cavalis Alforrats, then the Almughavars and finally the Crossbow.

What do you guys think? Comments, suggestions?

Chris

benos · Post by **benos** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:14 pm

i would suggest keeping something for chasing light horse types towards the end of the deployment.
Otherwise you may find them hard to pin down.
Not sure if i would keep the croosbow til last either?
Ben

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:12 pm

Deploy the cavalry last for sure, probably along with the cavalry.

I also think the Almughavars should go out in 6s, the flexibility is worth a lot. I would probably try and get 1x8 crossbows, they are much tougher against shooting as an 8.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:00 pm

No, you want the Almughavars in 8's mostly. 1 or 2 6's is ok, but at least 3x8 is highly advisable.
I'm not sure what the job of the CB is going to be in that army though. You might wish to consider taking the Armats (the Knights) instead.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Ghaznavid wrote: I'm not sure what the job of the CB is going to be in that army though.

A perennial problem, pretty irrespective of the army! If they are MF then in theory they can be flank guards*, but without rough terrain they'll be roadkill. Of course, hardly anybody will go near almughavars in rough terrain! Better are the LF who at least shouldn't die.

For deployment, keep at least one almughavar unit to the end.

* For about three turns: one as the enemy charge the crossbow: a second as they stop pursuing, and a third as they turn around.

chrisrivers13 · Post by **chrisrivers13** » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:00 pm

The crossbow were meant to be on the extreme ends to deal with enemy LH. We usually play within the same book, so I am looking at dealing with a bunch of LH from Ottomans, etc.

This is what I have modified it to:

1. Greek Archers
2 Almughavars (x6)
3 Almughavars (x6)
4 Almughavars (x6)
5 Almughavars (x6)
6 Albanian LH
7 Albanian LH
8 Albanian LH
9 Cavalis Armats(x4)
10 Cavalis Alforrats (x4)
11 Almughavars (x6)
12 Almughavars (x6)

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:39 pm

azrael86 wrote: A perennial problem, pretty irrespective of the army! If they are MF then in theory they can be flank guards*, but without rough terrain they'll be roadkill. Of course, hardly anybody will go near almughavars in rough terrain! Better are the LF who at least shouldn't die.

* For about three turns: one as the enemy charge the crossbow: a second as they stop pursuing, and a third as they turn around.

I used to think this, but my opinion of crossbows has evolved signifcantly.
1) They do need to be drilled.
2) They don't want to face foot.

But often people disrespect them at their own peril.

chrisrivers13 · Post by **chrisrivers13** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:42 pm

I have always thought they were fine against mounted (especially shooty types). That is why the XBw were in my initial list.

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:08 pm

Ghaznavid wrote:You might wish to consider taking the Armats (the Knights) instead.

I tried the Armats and disliked them. They wind up being the onlyl unmaneuverabel unit in the army. One strength of the Catalans is the ability for everything to move pretty fast if needed, the knights impeded this.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:43 pm

chrisrivers13 wrote:I have always thought they were fine against mounted (especially shooty types). That is why the XBw were in my initial list.

They are and often should be in lists.

chrisrivers13 · Post by **chrisrivers13** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:22 pm

I have thought the same thing about the knights in the Catalan list. I figured they would just slow you down or just get isolated and killed since you don't have many other really solid troops for the open spaces.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:38 pm

Possible I was too harsh on crossbow, having spent a weekend failing to hit pretty much anything with the 5 units of XB in condotta.

However, there are specific problems with them in a catalan army.

- As noted, facing off LH is a common role - but catalans have plenty of LH, so they aren't needed for that
- unless you are fighting a LH army then chances are you won't be facing LH, more likely cavalry or other foot.
- Using catalan in period you pretty much dash across the table and plough into the enemy with the MF, so terrain is unlikely to be usable to protect the crossbow from mounted and HF, unless you leave them behind
- Ottomann Cav can outshoot you and beat you in combat in the open. Same for Janissaries
- If you are drilled then 2 bg's costs 84 pts. Thats 8 more bases of spearmen...
- actually one BG is probably OK, but remember that your opponent is looking for things to kill that aren't Almughavars, so they will be targeted.
- consider having the second group of greek bow. At 18 pts they can stand in front of the baggage.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:48 pm

chrisrivers13 wrote:I have thought the same thing about the knights in the Catalan list. I figured they would just slow you down or just get isolated and killed since you don't have many other really solid troops for the open spaces.

Taken as off spear almughavars are fine in open spaces except if those spaces are in switzerland.

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:45 pm

azrael86 wrote:Possible I was too harsh on crossbow, having spent a weekend failing to hit pretty much anything with the 5 units of XB in condotta.

However, there are specific problems with them in a catalan army.

- As noted, facing off LH is a common role - but catalans have plenty of LH, so they aren't needed for that

I find having a single "heavy" unit supporting my LH fighting enemy LH is extremely valuable. Almughavars are overkill in this role and drilled protected xbows are really nice for it. They can shoot up the enemy LH, by supporting your LH they make it impossible for enemy LH to charge yours in a death or glory charge.

Also worth nothing that if the enemy brings around say a single unit of cavalry to face off against the xbows and a couple units of LH you can hit them with a lot of firepower...

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:02 pm

ethan wrote:
I find having a single "heavy" unit supporting my LH fighting enemy LH is extremely valuable. Almughavars are overkill in this role and drilled protected xbows are really nice for it. They can shoot up the enemy LH, by supporting your LH they make it impossible for enemy LH to charge yours in a death or glory charge.

Also worth nothing that if the enemy brings around say a single unit of cavalry to face off against the xbows and a couple units of LH you can hit them with a lot of firepower...

The best option is 4 at 5 vs LH, averaging 1.3 hits even with the overlap.

Not that likely, but yes, if your opponent uses 60 pts of cav to face twice that value of LH and CB, you should do OK. However if they send a bg of 4 Ottoman cav to play with your XB then they can outshoot you (3@4, superior vs 4@5) and if they charge in they are likely to beat you as well ( 4@4 superior vs 6@5).

chrisrivers13 · Post by **chrisrivers13** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Wouldn't the crossbow be at 4s to hit armored cavalry? Does not look like Xbw are - POA against any mounted.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:08 pm

chrisrivers13 wrote:Wouldn't the crossbow be at 4s to hit armored cavalry? Does not look like Xbw are - POA against any mounted.

Yes, so average of 2 hits if you get an overlap.

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:23 pm

I don't quite follow your maths!

The XBow will outshoot the cavalry if both are firing at even POAs, superior rerolls shouldn't compensate for the extra dice. And with a bigger BG, it is harder for the cav to inflict a test, or -1 for 1 hit per 2 bases. If the cav go disrupted there is a risk they will not be able to charge, and the owner of the XB will be very happy for the cav to sit there trading shots with the XBs for as long as possible.

In impact, the expected number of hits is the same, except for the superior rerolls, so a small edge to the cavalry.

In melee...well if the XB are disrupted by this time they are in real trouble. Otherwise they may well hang around for a few turns and could even get lucky.

The I would say about MF XB (or bow) is that I think they really need to be at least protected, otherwise they really are fairly useless against anything except as a speedbump.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:42 pm

chrisrivers13 wrote:Wouldn't the crossbow be at 4s to hit armored cavalry? Does not look like Xbw are - POA against any mounted.

And fours to hit Knights fives against all foot.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:46 pm

azrael86 wrote:
ethan wrote:
I find having a single "heavy" unit supporting my LH fighting enemy LH is extremely valuable. Almughavars are overkill in this role and drilled protected xbows are really nice for it. They can shoot up the enemy LH, by supporting your LH they make it impossible for enemy LH to charge yours in a death or glory charge.

Also worth nothing that if the enemy brings around say a single unit of cavalry to face off against the xbows and a couple units of LH you can hit them with a lot of firepower...
The best option is 4 at 5 vs LH, averaging 1.3 hits even with the overlap.

Not that likely, but yes, if your opponent uses 60 pts of cav to face twice that value of LH and CB, you should do OK. However if they send a bg of 4 Ottoman cav to play with your XB then they can outshoot you (3@4, superior vs 4@5) and if they charge in they are likely to beat you as well ( 4@4 superior vs 6@5).

Don't get too hooked up on points all BGs still cost 2 attrition points and thats what wins fog. Counting points is great until you start failing the combats and the CT's then they mean nothing. If I send my Superior Cavalry Lancers against your LF if i catch them its not the points that they cost you've lost but the 2 attrition points. Just a thought.