Tactics for shooty mounted facing longbows.

[Robert241167]

Hi guys

Well I'm planning a move away from my Santa Hermandads for a couple of months and am going to try out a shooty mounted army.

My main concern is facing a longbow army and I would like advice on how to deal with them.

I know some recommend armoured cavalry 1 rank deep but I still think the odds are very much in the longbows favour.

Aside from a flank march what else is there?

Cheers

Rob

[spikemesq]

Dismount?

Skirmish the bows and aim for something softer?

Write it off and start drinking early?

Not to be too flip, but it is hard to consider this match-up in the abstract. What cav armies are you considering? Why do you expect to face loads of longbows?

Spike

is too flip.

[Robert241167]

I'll make it simpler for you Spike.

One Britcon theme has the possibility of a few longbow armies. I'm mainly thinking lots of longbow with the usual heavy foot heavy weapons in support.

As for the shooty cavalry.............really any which would include armoured superior bow sword cavalry with some light horse. I know some can add knights, lancer cavalry or superior foot bowmen.

Cheers

Rob

[peterrjohnston]

If you have no other options, double rank and charge in. You need a big solid group and an IC helps.

The downside is they gets to shoot on 3s, but you are shooting back with the same number on 4 superior. Impact is even odds with the POA difference (6 at 5, 4 at 4), melee is in your favour.

I've done it and won, but I don't know if that's atypical

[eldiablito]

Is that really wise? I admit to frequently being wrong, so please, if anyone knows better, please correct me! However, this is a fairly straight forward math puzzle (assuming my PoAs are correct):

Let us start with Impact:
Assuming that you are even for the front rank, you will get 4 dice, on average, per BG. That should be 2 hits and maybe a 3rd with your rerolls. Meanwhile, the archers get 4 dice for the front rank and I believe 5s for 2 additional dice from a back rank. That means the front rank gets 2 hits and the second rank gets possibly a 3rd hit as well. This means a solid tie.

Now for Melee:
Depending on your opponent's archers, you could encounter quite a bit of differences. 100-Year-War Continental and War of the Roses can throw quite a few average, protected, Longbow, Swordsmen in your face. If you have Swordsmen, Armour, Superior on your cavalry, then you fight back with 4 dice with 2 hits, possibly a 3rd hit with your rerolls. The Longbow will get 6 dice with 3 fairly certain hits. I don't know about you, but that sounds very much like the English Longbow are very capable of making the cavalry bounce off and you have to deal with their incoming longbow shots at 3s to hit!

Also, this assumes that you have escaped the archery fire unscathed. If you enter their long range, you may have to test. If you are in their short range, you will very likely test and make a death roll on a 2+. Finally, 4 of your Superior, Drilled, Armoured, Bow, Swordsmen, Cavalry will cost 76 points, while 6 Average, Protected, Longbow, Swordsmen, Medium Foot will cost 54 points. So, if you dive in, you will loose. Your cavalry costs more and they have slight odds against their favor.

[fgilson]

Is that really wise? I admit to frequently being wrong, so please, if anyone knows better, please correct me! However, this is a fairly straight forward math puzzle (assuming my PoAs are correct):

Let us start with Impact:
Assuming that you are even for the front rank, you will get 4 dice, on average, per BG. That should be 2 hits and maybe a 3rd with your rerolls. Meanwhile, the archers get 4 dice for the front rank and I believe 5s for 2 additional dice from a back rank. That means the front rank gets 2 hits and the second rank gets possibly a 3rd hit as well. This means a solid tie.

Now for Melee:
Depending on your opponent's archers, you could encounter quite a bit of differences. 100-Year-War Continental and War of the Roses can throw quite a few average, protected, Longbow, Swordsmen in your face. If you have Swordsmen, Armour, Superior on your cavalry, then you fight back with 4 dice with 2 hits, possibly a 3rd hit with your rerolls. The Longbow will get 6 dice with 3 fairly certain hits. I don't know about you, but that sounds very much like the English Longbow are very capable of making the cavalry bounce off and you have to deal with their incoming longbow shots at 3s to hit!

Also, this assumes that you have escaped the archery fire unscathed. If you enter their long range, you may have to test. If you are in their short range, you will very likely test and make a death roll on a 2+. Finally, 4 of your Superior, Drilled, Armoured, Bow, Swordsmen, Cavalry will cost 76 points, while 6 Average, Protected, Longbow, Swordsmen, Medium Foot will cost 54 points. So, if you dive in, you will loose. Your cavalry costs more and they have slight odds against their favor.

You line up all your armored cav boot to boot, two ranks deep on the end of the longbow line. You have some skirmishers next to your cav absorbing shooting and doing what they can. This means that the longbowmen do not get one overlap per unit of yours. Of course the longbow player is trying to use terrain and other units to prevent something like this.

Next, your first description of the impact combat odds is off, although your result is correct. Cav get + Impact POA against MF in the open, which is the only place you'd be trying something like this. So, two base frontage of longbowmen have 4 dice at - POA and 2 impact shooting dice at even for two and one-sixth expected hits. The cavalry with 4 dice re-rolling ones are expecting two and one-sixth expected hits...a tie, although the average actual impact combat here will not result in said tie.

Melee should favor most of the mounted armored superior bowmen, and result in a tie for the one that is overlapped once.

Risky, indeed, but if the much smaller frontage longbow army gets a terrain piece and doesn't advance to expose a flank, what are you going to do?

[rbodleyscott]

Risky, indeed, but if the much smaller frontage longbow army gets a terrain piece and doesn't advance to expose a flank, what are you going to do?

Dismount a few BGs of ghilman or Mongol cavalry as MF Superior, Armoured, Bow, Swordsmen, mass them at one end and attack the longbowmen in terrain so that their billmen/dismounted MAA will be disordered if they intervene.

(Assuming you have ghilman or Mongol cavalry and so are allowed to dismount).

[MatthewP]

In my experience an inspired commander and rear support are a must. That extra plus 3 on cohesion is usually enough to get you through. Also attack as narrow a frontage as possible. Once you are in combat and get past the impact without disrupting you should win.

The only other problem is with drilled longbow who will just dance away before you and then shoot you in the flank.

[ethan]

If the best you can do is a straight up charge, then make it the best one you can. Don't be timid about it, line up, have some rear support get the generals in line and have at em. Assuming no stakes you have a PoA on teh charge and in melee. Assuming the longbows are in 8s, be ready to commit two TCs to the BGs fighting a single longbow group, your goal is to break that one group, don't try to lose slowly everywhere, try to win a localalized fight.

[azrael86]

Risky, indeed, but if the much smaller frontage longbow army gets a terrain piece and doesn't advance to expose a flank, what are you going to do?

Dismount a few BGs of ghilman or Mongol cavalry as MF Superior, Armoured, Bow, Swordsmen, mass them at one end and attack the longbowmen in terrain so that their billmen/dismounted MAA will be disordered if they intervene.

(Assuming you have ghilman or Mongol cavalry and so are allowed to dismount).

Conversely (albeit at the risk of compromising your capability for running away all the time) pick a shooty cav army with a bit of decent foot. Plenty of Arab lists can include some Dailami - line up the cav next to it... used as a 9 (to mitigate against the two bounds of shooting) then you are superior counting 6@3 vs 9@5 at impact with 6@4 vs 6@5 in melee...

[philqw78]

Conversely (albeit at the risk of compromising your capability for running away all the time) pick a shooty cav army with a bit of decent foot. Plenty of Arab lists can include some Dailami - line up the cav next to it... used as a 9 (to mitigate against the two bounds of shooting) then you are superior counting 6@3 vs 9@5 at impact with 6@4 vs 6@5 in melee...

6@5 and 3@6 if the dailami are armoured (I think). Otherwise HA foot troops are easier to hit when the charge into melee.

[olivier]

A shooty cavalry army must always buy at least a lancer BG to keep archer honest ...

[Polkovnik]

A single lancer BG isn't going to help much against lots of longbow !

[olivier]

It keep their maneuver honest, and it's generally enough to make a breaktrough in the line where you choose.
After that, you only have to exploit the hole

[david53]

Hi guys

Well I'm planning a move away from my Santa Hermandads for a couple of months and am going to try out a shooty mounted army.

My main concern is facing a longbow army and I would like advice on how to deal with them.

I know some recommend armoured cavalry 1 rank deep but I still think the odds are very much in the longbows favour.

Aside from a flank march what else is there?

Cheers

Rob

Rob try this it seems to work well

Have two BG's Light foot with a one base gap between each Bg.

Now place two BG of armoured Cavalry behind the lights each Cavalry BG has one Base extending into open even hitting on 3's its still only one dice no test. In your turn charge with both BGs of Cavalry. You end up in Coloum but its still a double plus if they are Lancers I know the archers get an extra dice but they would anyway.

You set all this up at deployment if your facing Longbow.

I would only do it with Lancers as with Bow/Sword its only one plus not two.

Rob are you moving over to the dark side with Light Horse?

[Robert241167]

Hi Dave

Yes I'm moving over to the dark side for a short while to see how it feels.

That's an interesting idea you propose that I'd not though of. I'm mainly going to have shooty cavalry but as they are superior that should even out the extra dice the longbow would have in impact. In melee the cavalry could expand which would then give them their full dice in melee still at a plus. I think it could swing it the shooty cavalry way and the longbows could be testing for losing to mounted in the open as well as being average troops so no re-rolling that dreaded double 1.

Thanks for the heads up!

Rob

[Robert241167]

Hi again Dave

Just a thought:

What happens if they then bring their heavy foot heavy weapons through the line?

What happens if they have their longbow side by side with the heavy foot heavy weapons?

Rob

[david53]

Hi again Dave

Just a thought:

What happens if they then bring their heavy foot heavy weapons through the line?

What happens if they have their longbow side by side with the heavy foot heavy weapons?

Rob

The idea with a Cavalry/LH Army against a Longbow Army is you stretch them out if they want to come to you they will have to leave at least a flank you can go after.

If they put there heavy foot next to the Longbow go after the open flank don't fight were they can get there heavy foot here you. A true Longbow army will not have many heavy foot BG's.

I did it in Scotland when we went up there last year just work your BG's into a position were you pick on one unit on the flank. Most Longbow armies will not have a lot/any Cavalry to speak off take an IC and you should get the open terrain you require to work this out.

It takes time you just have to be patient and set it up so you have a Longbow unit on there own or just shoot the heavy foot down most are in fours a lucky shot can make it difficult. Don't attack the centre of there line medium drilled foot can get too you very quick if you allow them on your flanks.

[Robert241167]

Hi Dave

Just thought of another problem with charging past the light foot.

If your opponent moves his longbow to just in front of your light foot you will have nowhere to expand once you are in contact and will have painful overlaps.

Maybe needs more thinking about.

Rob

[bertalucci]

Thanks for the advice.
I now know what to expect against my Free Company