Another charge problem, to be sure....

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:29 pm

First, please forgive my poor english,
then let's try to ask the question :
Conditions :
Let's say a CV BG A has an opportunity to charge a CV BG X in a one rank formation (evade capability), legal contact is possible and distance is less than 5 mu. Close to his target CV X (on which CV A declares a charge and which is declaring an evade), there is on the path of the charge another CV BG Y on one rank, or LH or whatever you want with evading capability, at a distance which is so as this second BG could be reached by the charger CV A only if the charger has a good VDM, contacts the initial target (CV BG X) and step forward with some bases contacting the second target CV Y ....ok !

Question :
When should the defender declare and make an evade with the second target CV Y?

1/As soon as the first target CV X evades and we realise that there is an existing (even small) possibility (up to normal move + VDM + forward step) for the second BG to be legally contacted (not knowing the charger VDM dice at that time, cause not yet thrown, if we follow the "full turn sequence")?, or

2/After all VDM dices (first evader CV X and charger CV A) are played and so giving, or not a possibility for CV Y to be a target, I mean if charger CV A rolls a poor die, no need to evade for CV Y ?

We are thinking the first option is more realistic and more close to the full turn sequence, but we'd like a confirmation !
Thank you, hoping I'm clear !!!!!!

Eric

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:45 pm

We would play (2). The second unit is not a target until the charger's VMD is known.

donkiesrus2003 · Post by **donkiesrus2003** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:46 pm

Bawawa
If the BG Y is within max VDM charge range (i.e. movement range + 2) then as soon as CV X declares evade it becomes a valid target and must evade if LH (unless it passes a CMT and choses to stand) or choose evade if CV before any VDM die rolls are made

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:35 pm

I fully agree with donkesrus2003, but in addition, seems to be logical to considere forward step, as it's written in the chapter about charge move !
The doubt we had was about before the charger VMD roll or after, but if we strictly follow the full turn sequence, all the evade moves are before the charge moves, and nowhere it is said to roll the all VDM dices before the considered phase, I mean, if you want, or have to evade you roll your evade VDM, and when it's time to move charges you roll VDM for your charge...and it's not at the same moment in the "full turn sequence"chart.
If was not the case, it will be very easy for the shooting unit (at a second place) to evade only if the charger roll a good VDM, and stay to fire if the charger rolls a poor VDM, not realistic at all.
I suppose in real life the decision to evade or not was taken early, to limit the risk to be reached !!!
Thank you

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:35 pm

Page 52 states that a legal target must be in the normal move distance of the chargers. This implies it is not a target and that it need not evade until it becomes a target.

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:44 pm

The chapter about what is legal doesn't talk about any distance but only the type of the contact (front-front, corner-front), normal distance move is to be respected to declare a charge on an initial target, (just chapter before), it's written that then a BG can be a target if an evading or broken friend reveal it to the enemy...it's written that we have to considere forward step for that case, and even if the BG was not declared initially as a target of the initial charge !
Then now the full turn sequence chart is clear, there is no more evades after charge, so why do you want to check VDM of charge before evades, it's even not the same line on the full turn sequence ?

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:56 pm

I answer myself again, remember that you have plenty of restrictions to avoid any cheat with that rule : the best is that you can't wheel during a charge if the result of the wheel reduce the numbers of bases in contact with the target (initial), that's (I suppose) to prevent anyone to make some little wheel in order to make maximum enemy evades with only one charge of shock troop...So my opinion is...the rule is excellent !!!! We just have to follow the right sequence, and it's very realistic, as far as I could have any good idea of ancient wars !
Many thanks !

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:34 am

Roger is correct - option 2 is the correct one.

Until the VMD is thrown by the chargers, BG Y is not in charge range.

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:17 am

Rules talk about charge path, and possibility of "legal" contact", never charge range !!!! Anyway, that's a surprising answer !
Thank you

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:48 am

Suggest you read the FAQ - page 3, item vii) - Troops Revealed by Evaders Charging.

Makes it very clear that the revealed BG has to be in charge range.

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:03 am

The FAQ, what a good idea, i forgot it !!
Thanks

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:10 am

that's very clear now, so the new target don't have the opportunity to evade if it's not in range and it can be contacted if the charger has a good VDM....so hard for the second target !

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:12 am

I mean forward step not VDM, cause no VDM if the target is in range, my mistake, sorry !

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:26 am

Still me
last part of that chapter of the FAQ says VMD apply only if all target evade,
So if the second BG is let's say at 6 MU from a charging CV, it is not a new target, cause out of rangee, ok, so all the valid target evaded the charger then make it's VDM, roll a 5 or 6 and contact the second BG not giving him any chance to evade !!!!
That's what the FAQ says, I feel it hard for the "shoot and run" units, that time !
Eric

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:42 am

bawawa wrote:Still me
last part of that chapter of the FAQ says VMD apply only if all target evade,
So if the second BG is let's say at 6 MU from a charging CV, it is not a new target, cause out of rangee, ok, so all the valid target evaded the charger then make it's VDM, roll a 5 or 6 and contact the second BG not giving him any chance to evade !!!!
That's what the FAQ says, I feel it hard for the "shoot and run" units, that time !
Eric

I'm sure any BG that becomes the target of a charge as you explain it can evade if in a legal formation to do so ie LH/LI Non Shock Cavalry in one rank?

donkiesrus2003 · Post by **donkiesrus2003** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:08 pm

Bawawa
"First the initial target evades. Then any other BG that is in the path of the initial charge (direction and range) becomes a
target, is charged and responds itself."..."In essence a revealed BG just becomes a normal target at that point
and is dealt with normally."
This is from the FAQ the unit gets the choice to evade if eligible or tries to pass CMT to stand if LF / LH before any VMD is rolled as per my original reply.
I disagree with Peter and Roger's statements because you could line non shock CV with javelins 7" from shock CV then when the shock CV fail their CMT and charge you as per the rules. The non shock CV player elects to stand so the shock CV can only charge 5" ahead and stop 2" away and get shot. These guys are now out of formation doing nothing because they were eager to get at the enemy that stayed for a fight but had the emeny evaded they have a 1 in 6 chance of occupying the vacated ground. That is crazy!

bawawa · Post by **bawawa** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:40 pm

So my question is :

In the FAQ chapter 4/Vii what means the word "range" between bracket for the potentially revealed target :

1/Charger normal move,
2/Charger normal move plus anticipation of any further charger VDM, or
3/Charger normal move plus already rolled, so, known VDM, or
4/Charger normal move + anticipation of any charger VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????
5/Charger normal move + plus already rolled, so, known VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????

None of these options give the same thing and it's a big difference in tactic for "shoot and run" armies and their opponents.

Please Richard help us !!!!!!
Just tell me 1,2,3,4,or 5

Many thanks to all of you, guys !!!

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:24 pm

bawawa wrote:So my question is :

In the FAQ chapter 4/Vii what means the word "range" between bracket for the potentially revealed target :

1/Charger normal move,
2/Charger normal move plus anticipation of any further charger VDM, or
3/Charger normal move plus already rolled, so, known VDM, or
4/Charger normal move + anticipation of any charger VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????
5/Charger normal move + plus already rolled, so, known VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????

None of these options give the same thing and it's a big difference in tactic for "shoot and run" armies and their opponents.

Please Richard help us !!!!!!
Just tell me 1,2,3,4,or 5

Many thanks to all of you, guys !!!

As I understand it, it is 1, 3 and 5.

So once the original target has evaded:

IF original target outide normal move distance:

Other enemy BG within normal move distance are now a target and can evade

IF all targets in normal distance have evaded out of normal distance, roll VMD, then

Other enemy BG within normal move +VMD distance are now a target and can evade

Now you move the chargers. If they contact anything:

Other enemy BG that would be contacted by a step forward are now a target and can evade.

NB Each target can only evade once.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:53 pm

I disagree with Peter and Roger's statements because you could line non shock CV with javelins 7" from shock CV then when the shock CV fail their CMT and charge you as per the rules. The non shock CV player elects to stand so the shock CV can only charge 5" ahead and stop 2" away and get shot. These guys are now out of formation doing nothing because they were eager to get at the enemy that stayed for a fight but had the emeny evaded they have a 1 in 6 chance of occupying the vacated ground. That is crazy!

Forgive me, but you appear to be confusing different parts of the rules here.

Shock cav only have to test not to charge if their target is within normal charge reach, not charge reach + VMD. See page 58, first bullet.

Suggest you re-read the rules and the FAQ together.

As I stated before, Roger's initial reply was correct.

donkiesrus2003 · Post by **donkiesrus2003** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:27 pm

Peter,
I did read the rules and the FAQ together before I posted the reply and page 58 is quite clear, and I quote
"(If the enemy who would be charged are capable of evading - see later - assume a charge move distance of 2 MUs more than the shock troops' normal move distance. This is the maximum variable move distance that could be added.)"

Please explain where I am getting confused.