Charging problem

[SonofTosh]

We had a situation where a HF battlegroup had to its' front enemy Light Horse, and beside it and slightly further away the rear of friendly Light Foot. So it seemed that the the Heavy foot could legally charge the Light Horse, but if it skirmished would run into the back of the friendly Light Foot. (The Light Foot were in front of 2 bases of Heavy Foot, so dropping a base to get past was not an option.)

Can they charge, and what happens to them if the enemy skirmish?

Another wrinkle on this is if the chargers are shock troops who have to test not to charge the skirmishers. It looks like if they fail a CMT not to charge they will burst through friends, but not if they charge normally.

[deadtorius]

If shock have to burst through friends to contact an enemy in charge range they don't test and don't charge if the only enemy in charge range are all lights.
Guess that takes care of the first part.

The heavies can charge the LH if there are no intervening friends. The LH can either test to stand and take it or bugger off, which is usually the more desirable action.
The LH roll their evade and make the evade move. LH can interpenetrate LF so off they go to their full move and the lights are fine. The heavies then make their VMD for the charge. If they would hit the LF the LF can either attempt to stand and take it, really not a good idea here, or they also bugger off rolling VMD and making their move. Chargers then move.
If a charging unit can contact new enemy due to lights moving away, then the new enemy that is hit becomes the target of the charge and normal impact combat occurs.

[Cynical]

In the original post he said the LF are friendly, so I would assume that he could charge the LH and after they evade will stop charging when the HF reach the back of the friendly LF.

I don't have my book with me so I might be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time

[petedalby]

A diagram would help here. I'm struggling to understand the problem - sorry.

[philqw78]

We had a situation where a HF battlegroup had to its' front enemy Light Horse, and beside it and slightly further away the rear of friendly Light Foot. So it seemed that the the Heavy foot could legally charge the Light Horse, but if it skirmished would run into the back of the friendly Light Foot. (The Light Foot were in front of 2 bases of Heavy Foot, so dropping a base to get past was not an option.)

Can they charge, and what happens to them if the enemy skirmish?

Another wrinkle on this is if the chargers are shock troops who have to test not to charge the skirmishers. It looks like if they fail a CMT not to charge they will burst through friends, but not if they charge normally.

A couple of things from this. Working backwards. If the chargers where shock they do not have to test to avoid charging skirmishers if they may burst through skirmishers if they charge.
If the friendly LF was in the way of the enemy LH evade the enemy LH would have to stop 1 MU from the LF and take it up the rear.
If the enemy LH evade could avoid the friendly LF in their way they shift, contract etc to pass. The chasing HF could then contract one base to pass. If dropping 1 base would not allow it to pass it stops on contacting the LF.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

There is a theory (to which I subscribe) that since pg 108 says, "Pursuers...can contract frontage by dropping back bases if necessary to avoid friends." , the HF could drop back more than one file of bases to continue their pursuit past intervening friends.

Terry G.

[nikgaukroger]

There is a theory (to which I subscribe) that since pg 108 says, "Pursuers...can contract frontage by dropping back bases if necessary to avoid friends." , the HF could drop back more than one file of bases to continue their pursuit past intervening friends.

Terry G.

You are correct as this is what the rules say - bases not files

[gozerius]

But this is not a pursuit. It is a charge. You pursue broken enemy. Evaders are not broken enemy.

You can charge. If the enemy evades out of the original charge path, you can wheel to follow. Otherwise since you cannot avoid the friendly BG by reducing frontage by one base, you stop when you contact the friendly LF

[SonofTosh]

OK here is the diagram

[LF][LF][LF]
[LH][LH]

[HF][HF][HF][HF][HF]

LF AND HF are on the same side. HF are a 10 base unit and are too wide to drop a base to get past the friendly LF. Even if they roll down on pursuit they are still close enough to hit the LF.

I have looked at the rules and they don't seem to cover this. I presume if the LH skirmish they stop when they reach the LF (except if shock who failed a CMT) but there does not seem to be anything to say that.

[SonofTosh]

OK another try on the diagram! Line added to position the LH correctly.

[LF][LF][LF]
__________[LH][LH]

[HF][HF][HF][HF][HF]

LF AND HF are on the same side. HF are a 10 base unit and are too wide to drop a base to get past the friendly LF. Even if they roll down on pursuit they are still close enough to hit the LF.

I have looked at the rules and they don't seem to cover this. I presume if the LH skirmish they stop when they reach the LF (except if shock who failed a CMT) but there does not seem to be anything to say that.

[philqw78]

No shock troops test to charge light troops if they may burst through light troops trying to catch them. So their could be no bursting through in this situation.

However, if the skirmishers were cavalry and the shock troops lancers or Scythed chariots; or the skirmishers LF and the chargers any shock, then it would crop up and they could test and burst through if they didn't want to charge.

However if they did want to charge we are back to the original problem.

Without a failed test they could not burst through. The stopping at the LF is a problem though as I can't find it in the rules, 'cos I'm at work. (But whatever they cannot burst through.) But is the charge then cancelled and Dr Bodley Scott's (Who?'s) TARDIS used to bring the LH back?

[gozerius]

I concede that the rules state (p 54) that a BG which cannot complete its charge by reducing frontage by a single basewidth to pass friends has it's charge cancelled. But since the reason that the charge cannot be completed is that the enemy evaded, the evade cannot be cancelled.

[philqw78]

I concede that the rules state (p 54) that a BG which cannot complete its charge by reducing frontage by a single basewidth to pass friends has it's charge cancelled. But since the reason that the charge cannot be completed is that the enemy evaded, the evade cannot be cancelled.

This is the fatal flaw.

[SonofTosh]

OK that seems to settle it. Evade from a legal charge takes place, but the charge is then cancelled as it has become illegal.

Only other wrinkle is the chargers presumably dice to see how far they pursue, and I would argue that the charge is only cancelled if the modified charge move would hit the friends.

[donkiesrus2003]

Gentlemen

Shock foot never charge mounted unless you want to charge! The second bullet point from the top on the L.H.S. page 58

"Foot shock troops must pass a CMT to prevent them from charging any enemy foot battlegroups within charge range."

It is clear from the rules that interpenetration cannot take place during a charge but consider these 3 points:

1. The charge was legal at the time of declaration as per p54.
2. Were they charging due to a failed CMT they would drop the cohesion of the LF and burst through not a desired result.
3. HF can never catch LH in the open (LH 7-2 = 5), (HF 3+2 = 5) relative seperation remains.

If someone wants to chance their arm i.e Shock MF against LH, HF against Cavalry in line you get the idea and the VMD means the evaders get away and you burst through friends. Then surely its a case of the commander made a bad call and gets penalised the charger is in front of the skirmish line and the skirmishers drop a level.
As opposed to Oh that didn't work out so they evade and I stay put suffering no missile fire from that unit. A win win for the guy that made a bad call.

I refer to my 3rd point the only reasons I see that HF would charge LH in that situation is to stop them firing or to force them into the path of another declared charge further back the evade path. To then say the win win situation applies is wrong. They charged with orders as opposed to without orders.

[gozerius]

OK that seems to settle it. Evade from a legal charge takes place, but the charge is then cancelled as it has become illegal.

Only other wrinkle is the chargers presumably dice to see how far they pursue, and I would argue that the charge is only cancelled if the modified charge move would hit the friends.

Of course.

[hammy]

OK that seems to settle it. Evade from a legal charge takes place, but the charge is then cancelled as it has become illegal.

Only other wrinkle is the chargers presumably dice to see how far they pursue, and I would argue that the charge is only cancelled if the modified charge move would hit the friends.

Err, I don't think so.

There is nothing illegal about the charge. It can IMO be declared and the LH evade. The chargers then make their charge move and have to stop when they hit friends.

A charge that is declared causes an evade and is then cancelled so it didn't happen so there is no charge so no evade so it did happen so there is an evade so it is cancelled is well..... just plain silly.

I agree that the rules don't cover chargers being blocked beyond their targets initial position after an evade move but the common sense option is that they move as far as they can and that is how I would rule if I was umpiring.

[grahambriggs]

I'd agree with Hammy.

There is also the following situation that is quite common:

DDDDDDD
FFFFFFFFFF
UUUUUUUU

D is a friendly BG facing down.

F is a fragmented enemy BG

U is a friendly BG facing up.

Everyone is very close

U declares a charge. F fails its test and breaks. F can't complete it's rout so disappears. U tries to complete its charge but D is in the way. So U's charge is cancelled. So why did F break?

Rules don't cover everything.

[kevinj]

I think Graham and Hammy have this nailed, the rule on P54 covers BGs who are blocked by friends when their charge is declared, not those who are only blocked when their target evades. The extension of regarding the charge as cancelled if the chargers cannot complete their move in those circumstances is that not only have the evaders responded to a charge that didn't happen, the chargers would then be able to do a normal move.

[donkiesrus2003]

Hammy
I think that as an umpire your ruling would be generous, I think the charging battlegroup should be made to burst through friends that they reach and all the badness that goes with it.
Serves the person right for doing something thats either stupid or gamey.
Graham your in your example the pursuers follow the routers dropping back as many files as required to avoid friends, remember in your example they are not charging troops following evaders but troops pursuing routers.