German peasants revolts

[nikgaukroger]

Karsten,

Any thoughts as to whether a list could be done for these?

[Ghaznavid]

Shouldn't be to difficult. I will look into it.

[nikgaukroger]

Cheers.

[Ghaznavid]

Ok, so what exactly do we want to cover? From a cursory overview I've come up with five possibilities which could be covered more or less well with a single list:

1514 to 1516 Great Peasantwar centered around the Unterkrain (lower Carniola) roughly modern day Slovenia also known as Windischer Bauernkrieg (though strictly applied that would only cover the actions in 1515)

1524 to 1526 The great German Peasant War/Revolt, probably the best known and most important one.

1534 to 1536 The Danish Peasantrevolts, interesting because Lübeck gets involved on the side of the Peasants.

These three could probably be covered easily in one list without making any risk of making it complicated.


Two other interesting ones might turn out to complicate the list a bit more.

1514 Peasant Revolt (lead by the Szecklers) in Hungary.

and

1542 to 1543 the Dacke-Revolts in Sweden (to be honest I've no idea how the Swedish peasants might have been armed, so getting this one in could take some research).



One other thing I noticed is that the current German State list is a bit problematic if one wishes to field a city state/league army that did not have much support in the form of MAA. Gendarmes, etc. minima are simply to high for that. (I admit I did only consider the large city leagues like the 2nd Swabian League which usually had the support of one or more knight league or powerful noble).

[Ghaznavid]

While doing the Dosza part of the Peasant Revolts (and parallel the Hungarian list) I've come upon the problem with classing the Szeklers. For the time being I've both the LH and the Cv as Bow, Swordsmen, since there is no Light Spear or Bow* available anymore. I wondered if Light Lance might be appropriate, but since 3 full weapon abilities are out, it would be odd to have the LH as Bow, Light Lance, Swordsmen and the Cavalry as Bow, Swordsmen only.
Any suggestions?

[rbodleyscott]

While doing the Dosza part of the Peasant Revolts (and parallel the Hungarian list) I've come upon the problem with classing the Szeklers. For the time being I've both the LH and the Cv as Bow, Swordsmen, since there is no Light Spear or Bow* available anymore. I wondered if Light Lance might be appropriate, but since 3 full weapon abilities are out, it would be odd to have the LH as Bow, Light Lance, Swordsmen and the Cavalry as Bow, Swordsmen only.
Any suggestions?

There is still Bow*.

Bow*, Light lancers, Swordsmen would be OK provided that you are saying (historically) that they had lost the lance (or the ability to use it effectively) by the time of the Transylvanian-Hungarian list which has already gone to Osprey.

[nikgaukroger]

Couple of questions on the revolting peasants:


1. The peasants that have a HF or MF option, is it OK for them to be mixed or should we sayy all one or the other?

2. My initial impression is a lot of pikemen, I'd expected more lesser weapon types (probably spearmen). Not sure why but just want to check we are not over-equipping them.

3. Pike BG size - just to check that the peasants having smaller pike BG sizes than the Landskneckts (i.e. max 12 not 16) is deliberate.

[Ghaznavid]

There is still Bow*.

Bow*, Light lancers, Swordsmen would be OK provided that you are saying (historically) that they had lost the lance (or the ability to use it effectively) by the time of the Transylvanian-Hungarian list which has already gone to Osprey.

Hmm, right I only checked the point cost table, not the capabilities table as I didn't expect Bow* to be a free capability. And yes from what I can say the Szekler changed a bit over time, the richer, better equipped ones joining the pure, western style lancer category, the rest becoming slightly less prone to get stuck in, so triple armament seemed inapropriate for the later list. Still fits for the early (i.e. pre-Ottoman conquest) list.

Couple of questions on the revolting peasants:

1. The peasants that have a HF or MF option, is it OK for them to be mixed or should we sayy all one or the other?

No the ability to take them as either in a single army is intentional. Although I've no strong conviction either way, it's very difficult to say. If you wish to ge detailed I would guess. Keep it both for Hungarian, Slovenian and Swedes. Make it one or the other for German and Danish.

2. My initial impression is a lot of pikemen, I'd expected more lesser weapon types (probably spearmen). Not sure why but just want to check we are not over-equipping them.

I pondered that bit a long time, it's pretty difficult to be sure to what extend they were spears or pikes. On average they seem to have used pike sized poking instruments. If that qualifies them as pikemen ... I think the numbers are probably ok for the Germans and probably the Danish. I'm less certain on the others. So if you want to reduce the numbers for all or some of them I'm not going to object.

3. Pike BG size - just to check that the peasants having smaller pike BG sizes than the Landskneckts (i.e. max 12 not 16) is deliberate.

I would have liked to permit larger BGs, but I did not wish to permit them integral rear support. Hence I settled for smaller BGs.

[nikgaukroger]

Hmm, right I only checked the point cost table, not the capabilities table as I didn't expect Bow* to be a free capability. And yes from what I can say the Szekler changed a bit over time, the richer, better equipped ones joining the pure, western style lancer category, the rest becoming slightly less prone to get stuck in, so triple armament seemed inapropriate for the later list. Still fits for the early (i.e. pre-Ottoman conquest) list.

I take it from this that Bow* should be added?

No the ability to take them as either in a single army is intentional. Although I've no strong conviction either way, it's very difficult to say. If you wish to ge detailed I would guess. Keep it both for Hungarian, Slovenian and Swedes. Make it one or the other for German and Danish.

If your intention was to have either I'm tempted to leave it.

I pondered that bit a long time, it's pretty difficult to be sure to what extend they were spears or pikes. On average they seem to have used pike sized poking instruments. If that qualifies them as pikemen ... I think the numbers are probably ok for the Germans and probably the Danish. I'm less certain on the others. So if you want to reduce the numbers for all or some of them I'm not going to object.

I'll think about it, but will bear in mind you've already given it much thought

I would have liked to permit larger BGs, but I did not wish to permit them integral rear support. Hence I settled for smaller BGs.

OK, makes them a bit more brittle - however, they'll have loads of BGs for support so I guess they will usually will be. I'll leave as is so that isolated peasant BGs will collapse more easily which seems right.

[rbodleyscott]

There is still Bow*.

Bow*, Light lancers, Swordsmen would be OK provided that you are saying (historically) that they had lost the lance (or the ability to use it effectively) by the time of the Transylvanian-Hungarian list which has already gone to Osprey.

Hmm, right I only checked the point cost table, not the capabilities table as I didn't expect Bow* to be a free capability.

It isn't free, it is in the points table, but it was added after 14.01 (in Version 15.11 posted only on the changes since 14.01 thread). Sorry.

[Ghaznavid]

I take it from this that Bow* should be added?

As option for the Cv, yes please.

[nikgaukroger]

I take it from this that Bow* should be added?

As option for the Cv, yes please.

So Bow*, Light Lancers, Swordsmen.

And the LH as Bow, Light Lancers, Swordsmen?

On the basis they only get 1 dice per 2 bases for shooting anyway.

[Ghaznavid]

I take it from this that Bow* should be added?

As option for the Cv, yes please.

So Bow*, Light Lancers, Swordsmen.

And the LH as Bow, Light Lancers, Swordsmen?

On the basis they only get 1 dice per 2 bases for shooting anyway.

More like Cv either Bw, Sw or Bw*, LL, Sw.
The LH ... I'm not sure I think LL is stronger capability then Light Spear in FoG:AM, so I'm inclined to leave them as just Bow, Sw. Might also make for a smoother transition to the later list where both the LH and the Cv have no option for a impact capability anymore.

[Ghaznavid]

Danish Peasant Revolt (1534-1536) or Dacke Revolt (Sweden 1542-1543)
The Gendarmes and Reiters should only be available for the Danish.

[Ghaznavid]

See above, still not fixed.

[nikgaukroger]

My fault - missed it. Thanks for noticing.