Changing the Ostwall

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I had a review of the Ostwall and finally found a map showing the Ostwall.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festungsfr ... rthe-Bogen

http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/F034/06/Text.htm

It seems the Ostwall was only made as fortresses between the Warthe and Oder rivers (the vertical line just west of Poznan). We will therefore reduce the Ostwall into just 3 hexes going along the German / Polish border west of Poznan. We will also make a slight map change so the hexes 1xSE and 2xSE of Breslau will become German (most of the Oder is on the German side of the border). We will aso redraw the Oder river in one hex so it follows the border.

Since we then remove most of the fortress hexes in Germany we wonder if we should introduce the Warthe river in Poland. It flow to the Oder via Poznan.

Look here:
http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/F034/06/129a.jpg

What do you think?

[gerones]

I think it would be good to change the current Ostwall and reduce it. And as it is shown in the information provided in the post, the fortresses would have to be between Oder river and Warta river. So yes too to add the Warta river. More rivers and fortresses sited in strategic positions should be effective against the russians to delay their offensives in Poland as in the WWII historically happens. What about the Westwall or Sigfried line?. In the wikipedia article provided in the post it was also a link to this defensive line and it says it was more a propaganda tool than a military defence. I think that reducing to a discontinous row of fortresses would be more accurate and realistic than the continous and almost impassable current one. Let´s keep in mind that all that area is full of rivers and forests, so the defensive german position won´t decrease too much reducing it.

[schwerpunkt]

Stauffenberg:
Sounds like a good change.

Leridanos idea of reviewing the Westwall has merit too, especially as in game turns it is pretty impassable in winter if manned by corps.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The westwall held the Allies for about 6 months. The Allies launched Operation Market Garden to bypass the Westwall and get across the Rhine in Holland. It was only in March 1945 the Allied units crossed the Rhine (at Remagen). So I don't think it's a bad idea having the Westwall as is. Especially since the units can't entrench many levels in clear terrain. If we allow for a higher max entrenchment level then it's possible to do something about the fortresses along the Westwall.

I've played so many games before the Westwall was introduced when the Allies could easily overwhelm the Germans soon after they land in France and sprint towards Berlin. We have to remember that the units the Germans will use to man the Westwall will often be newly built units and those have lower survivability and quality due to the severe manpower problems the Germans have in late 1944.

I never have any problems with breaching the Westwall as the Allied player. You have complete air superiority at the time so it's easy to bombard the key fortress hexes with 2 tac bombers every turn. One of the Fortress hexes can be attacked from 3 hexsides and will fall in one turn if you prepare the attack by bombardments prior to storming the fortress. Then you can widen the game in the fortress line and push towards Frankfurt and beyond. You don't have to take every fortress hex to storm to Berlin. Quite often the Germans start abandoning the fortress hexes once the Siegfried line is breached.

I usually push into Germany by breaching one of the Siegfried line hexes combined with a push across the Rhine near Arnhem. When the Allies also threaten to make an amphibious landing between Hague and Wilhelmshaven then the Germans will have big problems holding all positions. The Allies exploit the weaknesses and once they're through they will qiuickly be in Hamburg and Berlin.

[gerones]

The westwall held the Allies for about 6 months. The Allies launched Operation Market Garden to bypass the Westwall and get across the Rhine in Holland. It was only in March 1945 the Allied units crossed the Rhine (at Remagen). So I don't think it's a bad idea having the Westwall as is. Especially since the units can't entrench many levels in clear terrain. If we allow for a higher max entrenchment level then it's possible to do something about the fortresses along the Westwall.

I've played so many games before the Westwall was introduced when the Allies could easily overwhelm the Germans soon after they land in France and sprint towards Berlin. We have to remember that the units the Germans will use to man the Westwall will often be newly built units and those have lower survivability and quality due to the severe manpower problems the Germans have in late 1944.

I never have any problems with breaching the Westwall as the Allied player. You have complete air superiority at the time so it's easy to bombard the key fortress hexes with 2 tac bombers every turn. One of the Fortress hexes can be attacked from 3 hexsides and will fall in one turn if you prepare the attack by bombardments prior to storming the fortress. Then you can widen the game in the fortress line and push towards Frankfurt and beyond. You don't have to take every fortress hex to storm to Berlin. Quite often the Germans start abandoning the fortress hexes once the Siegfried line is breached.

I usually push into Germany by breaching one of the Siegfried line hexes combined with a push across the Rhine near Arnhem. When the Allies also threaten to make an amphibious landing between Hague and Wilhelmshaven then the Germans will have big problems holding all positions. The Allies exploit the weaknesses and once they're through they will qiuickly be in Hamburg and Berlin.

I have read some articles about the western allies campaign in late summer 1944 (liberation of Paris and quick allied advance in France in september) and they all are agree that the main reason that avoided the allies not to reach the heart of Germany in late 1944 was the bad weather during the autumn and winter of 1944. They said too that the Sigfried line fortifications were not a match for the new allied bombardment weapons that could easily destroy them. So for introducing a little more realism I don´t mean to remove at all the westwall but to reduce it. I have to say again that all that area is full of rivers and forests, so this reduction I suggest shouldn´t affect too much to the defence of Germany.