Shock Troops - replacement concept for impulsive

[IainMcNeil]

This will be replacing impulsive troops in the new version. There are no longer any impulsive troops. NB Fragmented is the new term for wavering, as we wanted to avoid any thoughts of 7th edition waver tests!


SHOCK TROOPS
The following troops are considered ???Shock Troops??? unless FRAGMENTED:
?? Lancers other than Light Horse.
?? Heavy Chariots.
?? Impact Foot.
?? Offensive Spearmen.
?? Pikemen.

If such a move is entirely in open terrain, mounted shock troops within charge reach of enemy in the IMPACT phase must pass a CMT not to charge any troops except:
?? Skirmishers
?? Elephants

If such a move is entirely in open terrain, foot shock troops within charge reach of enemy non-light foot in the IMPACT phase must pass a CMT not to charge them.

If such a move is entirely in open terrain, shock troops currently in range and arc of fire of at least 2 front rank bases of enemy shooters, must pass a CMT
?? not to charge (if in charge reach in the IMPACT phase) such shooters or other enemy to their front.
?? not to advance a full move towards (in the MOVEMENT phase, if not in charge reach in the IMPACT phase) such shooters or the nearest enemy to their front.

[nikgaukroger]

Wonderful, just wonderful

[sagji]

I am not convinced D class pike should be included.
I think it should be that you charge if you PASS the CMT - 'A' class knights with a general and friends behind should be more likely to charge uncontrolably than 'D' class knights with a threatend flank.

I think the shooting test needs to be made more relevant - currently if could be as low a 0 dice at -- (2 LF, crossbow at extended range), while excluding 2 Dice at = (ART, close range)
Instead of 2 elements I would suggest sufficient elements to inflict 2 hits - i.e. 4 dice at --, or 2 dice for any other PoA.

[nikgaukroger]

I think it should be that you charge if you PASS the CMT - 'A' class knights with a general and friends behind should be more likely to charge uncontrolably than 'D' class knights with a threatend flank.

Alan, take a look at battles like Arsouf - the better milites, in this case the military orders, were placed as the rear guard led by their own general especially because they were more controllable.

The psychology is important here. Once troops have been trained to do something the newbies/less confident/etc. want to get on a do it ASAP, it takes experience, more training and more expereinced officers for them to be able to be held back from doing this.

[sagji]

I think it should be that you charge if you PASS the CMT - 'A' class knights with a general and friends behind should be more likely to charge uncontrolably than 'D' class knights with a threatend flank.

Alan, take a look at battles like Arsouf - the better milites, in this case the military orders, were placed as the rear guard led by their own general especially because they were more controllable.

The psychology is important here. Once troops have been trained to do something the newbies/less confident/etc. want to get on a do it ASAP, it takes experience, more training and more expereinced officers for them to be able to be held back from doing this.

If the milites were the rear guard then they would be outside charge range of the emeny so not required to test for control.
In AoW they make a good rear guard - they are more maneuverable, and can provide rear support where they wouldn't receive it if the units were reversed.

There is a balance of two competing factors - the confidence of the soldiers to charge versus their discipline to follow orders.
'D' class will generally remain in control because of the lack of confidence, and 'A' class will generally remain in control because of sufficient discipline.
In game terms this would mean units make an uncontroled charge if they pass a CT and fail a CMT - it would probably be quicker if this was one roll but used for both tests.

[IainMcNeil]

While there are arguments for special casing all sorts of things like this, in the interests of keeping things simple and fast flowing we prefer to avoid them. Having one die roll and checking two tests is likely to be confusing to new players and time consuming.

[nikgaukroger]

If the milites were the rear guard then they would be outside charge range of the emeny so not required to test for control.
In AoW they make a good rear guard - they are more maneuverable, and can provide rear support where they wouldn't receive it if the units were reversed.

Alan, the rearguard at Arsouf saw some of the fiercest action of the whole battle coming under reapected attack. In the end the pressure of the constant shooting, etc. forced the military order milites to charge despite Richard repeatedly refusing them permission (IIRC they asked 3 times). Their charge forced Richard's hand and he led the rest of his milites into action from withing the infanry formation to follow the charge of the military orders.

IMO the Shock troops rules suggested allow this to happen as it did historically - the drilled military order milites will eventually fail a test for being within charge range or shooting range - whereas your suggestion will make it very likely that they will charge as soon as approached which is exactly the opposite of history.

Essentially the same thing happened at Plataia where the Tegeans in the Spartan section of the army were goaded into charging the Persians by missiles whilst the Spartiates stood form. The Tegeans charge precipitated a more general melee.

[sagji]

Alan, the rearguard at Arsouf saw some of the fiercest action of the whole battle coming under reapected attack. In the end the pressure of the constant shooting, etc. forced the military order milites to charge despite Richard repeatedly refusing them permission (IIRC they asked 3 times). Their charge forced Richard's hand and he led the rest of his milites into action from withing the infanry formation to follow the charge of the military orders.

IMO the Shock troops rules suggested allow this to happen as it did historically - the drilled military order milites will eventually fail a test for being within charge range or shooting range - whereas your suggestion will make it very likely that they will charge as soon as approached which is exactly the opposite of history.

Essentially the same thing happened at Plataia where the Tegeans in the Spartan section of the army were goaded into charging the Persians by missiles whilst the Spartiates stood form. The Tegeans charge precipitated a more general melee.

I agree shooting triggered charges are mainly down control.
For other situations should Low Countries pikemen (drilled D) be more likely to charge than not, or Scots Common pikemen (undrilled D) twice as likely to charge billmen as not?
Should the fact that a unit is disrupted make it more likely to charge?

[IainMcNeil]

The logic is that a unit that is disrupted is probably nervous and harder to control. They are either under fire or their flanks are looking unsecure. They want to get in there before things get any worse.