Med French vs Med German 13/10

[hammy]

Med French vs Med German

French similar to the last report but I changed three BG's of 4 knights into two BG's of 6. This was because from our first game we had concluded a 4 element BG is very prone to casualties (one loss is 25% which hurts in cohesion tests)

In summary the French army was 2*FC, 2*TC, 2*6 knights, 3*4 knights, 1*4 varlets, 2*6 geonese, 2*8 crossbow, 1*4 light crossbow, 1*4 rubbish longbow, 2*6 ribauds

The Germans had also decided their small units of knights were not a very good plan and had also dropped their artillery to gain some pikemen.

In summary the German army was 1*FC, 3*TC, 2*6 knights, 1*4 mounted crossbow, 2*4 light horse, 3*8 spearmen, 2*10 pike, 1*6 crossbow, 1*8 light archers, 1*6 handgunners, 2*6 mob

The French invaded again and this time the compulsary vineyard fell on the French left and the compulsary field on the right both close to the centreline. The French open areas all fell on the German side of the battlefield and did restrict slightly where other terrain could be placed. The remaining terrain of note was a small vineyard near the centreline just right of centre on the French side of the field and a small field just the other side of the centreline next to this vineyard.

The Germans deployed with a battlegroup of skirmishing light horse on either flank and a single rank of light infantry across the centre. Their foot from the French left were spear, pike (protected), spear, spear, pike (unprotected), crossbow. Behind the spear from the french left were cavalry, mob, knights, knights, mob. The mob were on the baseline with the knights forward of them. Facing this on the French left were the light crossbows and half the undrilled crossbow, then came a small battlegroup of mounted knights, next were the two large groups of knights deployed on foot as they were facing solid foot then the rest of the undrilled crossbow, the French longbow, the Gross varlets and finally all the geonese crossbow were on the French right. Either side of the camp were two groups of ribauds and the last two groups of knights were in reserve behind the dismounted men at arms.

The French began by pushing hard on their right flank and trying but failing to do the same on their left. The men at arms advanced slowly and the mounted knights sat and waited. The Germans responded by pushing their skirmishers forward and advancing the main line of foot. The two groups of knights both led by a general wheeled to their left and began to move to counter the massed missile troops on the French right (there were 24 elements of crossbow and longbow pushing on the right).

The second bound saw the French continue to advance on both flanks and both the dismounted men at arms and the left hand group of knights advanced to try to overwhelm the German right flank. The Germans continued with the advance of their skirmish screen and slowly pushed the foot forward behind them. The knights rushed to face the French missile troops and the mounted crossbow wheeled out to support the outmatched German right flank. (note 1)

The French continued their advance on the right but the leftmost group of crossbow tried and failed to wheel towards the unprotected pike on the end of the German line. On the left the crossbow and light crossbow pushed out of the vineyard and the knights advanced to support their right. The leftmost group of reserve knights lead by the CinC also wheeled left to support this attack and the men at arms stood their ground.
German skirmishing handgunners now moved into range of the righthand group of men at arms but failed to disturb them. The Hungarian light horse facing the knights moved to the centre of the battlefield between the two lines and were in a possition to eventually threaten the flank of the knights. The main line of foot advanced and the right flank group of spear expanded to try to close off the advancing French knights.

Things were now ready for the fight to start. On the right two groups of Geonese crossbow moved to effective range from the first unit of knights (who had by now made it across the table to cover the flank) (note 2) and on the left the lead group of knights failed a CMT so wheeled towards the Hungarian LH. In the centre the men at arms charged the handgunners who evaded (question 1)
In the German bound the Hungarians pulled back so as to be in a possition to hit the flank of the knights next bound. The lefr part of the main line wheeled towards some more French crossbowmen and the knights infront of the Geonese crossbow advanced to just short of them and slid a half base to avoid the edge of a field. They would be pretty sure of hitting the crossbow next bound, it all depended on the shooting. To reduce the effect of the shooting slightly Alan put the Hungarians from that flank in front of the end of the line of crossbow (note 3).

The left flank knights failed another CMT and could only really advance and wheel towards the the spear line (with a CMT I think I could have slipped past the end). I advanced with one group of men at arms and the other one charged again and the skirmishers evaded again. The crossbow threatened by the spear and pike wheeled to extreme range on the pike and hoped that unprotected pikemen would be a good target for their quarrels. The now rather nervous Geonese crossbowmen stood their ground. In the shooting phase a couple of hits on the unprotected pike caused them to test and fail but the five dice against the knights only caused one casualty so the knights were in and still steady
In the German bound the Hungarians threw themselves on the flank of the lead group of French knights but bounced off (note 4), the knights charged the crossbowmen (note 5) and miracle of miracles the crossbowmen threw the knights back. The small force of German crossbowmen advanced to a possition to trade shots with the French longbowmen, the dissordered pike facing the other crossbow stood their ground and the spear next to them advanced and slid over to protect the pike from missiles.

On the left the French knights hit the end of the spear line and surprise.. won the impact phase 1 hit to 0 (Alan managed to roll 6 dice without a 4). The spear failed the cohesion test and became dissorganised. In the following melee phase the knights suffered 5 hits (including a dead general) but inflicted 7! the spearmen failed a cohesion test in style and broke. The men at arms in the centre charged again and the skirmishers again evaded, (note 6)

The second group of knights were close behind their victorious colleagues and the left flank crossbow moved up to trade missiles with their German mounted counterparts. The Geonese stood their ground and hoped to put paid to the now dissorganised knights to their front. The left flank crossbow forced a test on the German crossbowmen but to no avail, the Geonese managed to drop the knights facing them to wavering but the German crossbow managed to inflict a kill and dissorder on the French longbowmen (who are actually pretty pants). The other shooting while extensive was pretty much all such that it was impossible for it to have any effect.

The Germans now seemed to be in fairly serious trouble. Their right flank was in serious trouble and on their left a unit of Wavering knights was facing a load of crossbow. All the Germans could do was charge. On their right the lone cavalry unit charged the crossbowmen who had been ineffectually pinging away and in the resultant combats dropped them to wavering and the wavering knights charged the crossbows at the same time as the Hungarians hit them in the flank (question 2). The flank attack again bounced but with one dice against 3 even a ++ doesn't help much. The wavering knights however this time benefitted from roughly average dice and both battlegroups of crossbow had to test, one failed badly and dropped to wavering, the other held. In the mele phase the crossbow again lost but this time made the test however things had turned significantly in one charge as two of the three missile groups on the French right were now broken or wavering (the longbow broke from shooting).

Unfortunately at this point with things in the ballance and the clash of heavy foot still to happen we had to call time. We had perhaps been playing for 2.5 to 3 hours and had some dicsussion regarding rules. At least our armies ar enow packed away in AoW organisations so next time we will be setup quicker.




Note 1 - There was a little disultory missile fire at this point and throughout the battle there were a lot of missile phases where despite the possibility of hits there was no chance of either a cohesion test or a casualty.

Note 2 - I was rather hoping that 12 elements of crossbow would be a bit of an issue for 6 elements of knights. My first volley caused a cohesion test but that was passed and Alan didn't roll the required 1 to fail a death roll.

Note 3 - Five dice at 4's caused another cohesion test and a chance of a death (1 in 6) but again the knights ignored it.

Note 4 - We calculated this as 2 dice for the French and 1 for the Hungarians (halved for skirmishers) with the Hungarians having one nett POA ++ for a flan attack but the French get + for knightly lancers.

Note 5 - This is really not pretty for the crossbow (nor should it be) Alan had three dice on one BG of crossbow and managed one hit (not good) and six against the other which ALL missed despite him only needing a 3. The result of this was that the knights lost the melee (wild combat dice) and failed a cohesion test and took a loss.

Note 6 - This time there wan't really room for all the evaders and one element had to be placed on top of another element. We just played that the skirmishers were dissordered until they weren't on top of their friends but that may have been wrong.


Question 1 - We had a quick check in the rules but coudn't find an answer to this one. Can a battlegroup charge, fail to contact then move?

Question 2 - Flank charge on bow how many dice do the bow get? We played that as the crossbow were not engaged frontally and were two ranks deep that they got three dice but we were far from sure.

Question - can undrilled troops wheel and move short to 6" as a simple move or is is a complex? There is one outside 6" and one within 6" in the chart but no exactly 6".

Question - move forward and contract, how far do you have to move forward?

Question - "In open terrain" is it the cavalry or what they are fighting, does the whole element or only part of it have to be in the terrain?

Question - when is an element an overlap (specifically when can it shoot and not be shot at). After an impact phase with non alligned troops is the element that is next to the last element in partial contact counted as an overlap?

Question - if a flank attacker is beaten off does the victorious unit just ignore it?

Question - Does a ZOI from a flank prevent a second rank counting as an overlap forwards?

Question - The rules seem to say that if routers are in contact at the start of the interbound phase they get cut down but it would seem to make more sense if it was at the end of the phase.

Concern - Having now played two games it seems to me that crossbow are roadkill to even half decent mounted troops. My understanding of history is that this should not be the case. If wavering knights outnumbered two to one can beat crossbow without good dice I fear there may be something wrong.

[nikgaukroger]

A couple of crossbow/cavalry interactions that spring to mind.

Han period Chinese - foot crossbowmen are pretty much able to hold off steppe type cavalry with their shooting unless their ammunition runs aout. So your probably looking at Average, MF, Drilled, Protected, Crossbow, -, - troops against Average, Cavalry, Undrilled, Protetced, Bow, -, Swordsmen.

Song period Chinese - the foot crossbowmen are now expected to need terrain or ditched to do the same. Foot as before but the cavalry are now Average/Superior, Cavalry, Undrilled, Armoured, Bow, -, Swordsmen.

Hope that will help.

[hammy]

A couple of crossbow/cavalry interactions that spring to mind.

Han period Chinese - foot crossbowmen are pretty much able to hold off steppe type cavalry with their shooting unless their ammunition runs aout. So your probably looking at Average, MF, Drilled, Protected, Crossbow, -, - troops against Average, Cavalry, Undrilled, Protetced, Bow, -, Swordsmen.

Song period Chinese - the foot crossbowmen are now expected to need terrain or ditched to do the same. Foot as before but the cavalry are now Average/Superior, Cavalry, Undrilled, Armoured, Bow, -, Swordsmen.

Hope that will help.

Right, the only difference is the armour of the cavalry. On this basis knights should easily do for the crossbow but not perhaps till the melee phase. The perceived problem in my games seems to be that the crossbow don't standup in the impact phase where the armour make no difference.

It is certainly a different interraction to the DBM one where I would back 12 elements of Bw(O) vs 3 DBE Kn(I) .

Hammy

[hammy]

It has been pointed out to me that I missed a rather important rule which does rather affect the mounted vs missile troop interraction. Specifically disrupted troops have to pass a CMT to charge and wavering troops can't charge at all.

As long as the missile foot can manage to disrupt their opponents they are not in a bad possition.

[sagji]

Note 4 - We calculated this as 2 dice for the French and 1 for the Hungarians (halved for skirmishers) with the Hungarians having one nett POA ++ for a flan attack but the French get + for knightly lancers.

skirmisher flank attacks are very weak - basically 1 dice at ++ vs 2 at -- is an even match.
Also lancers that catch evading LF get no bonus - the ++ for hitting the rear is no benefit as they are already at ++.
Possably units hit in flank/rear should get half dice instead of --.

Note 6 - This time there wan't really room for all the evaders and one element had to be placed on top of another element. We just played that the skirmishers were dissordered until they weren't on top of their friends but that may have been wrong.

The problem was that the evading LF mostly went through, or past, a unit of HF at an angle, leaving 1 element well separated from the unit.

Question 1 - We had a quick check in the rules but coudn't find an answer to this one. Can a battlegroup charge, fail to contact then move?

And can it move if it contacts but is repelled in the impulse move, or if it destroys its opponent?
What about units that don't charge, but are hit by counter chargers.

Question - move forward and contract, how far do you have to move forward?

Specifically moving short is a complex move for some troups - so does a complex wheel + move, or a complex contract + move, have to be a full move.

Question - when is an element an overlap (specifically when can it shoot and not be shot at). After an impact phase with non alligned troops is the element that is next to the last element in partial contact counted as an overlap?

We had 2 units of xbowmen hit on the join by knights which stood. In the shooting phase the knights have not yet aligned to the Bow. The solution is to move the ligning up for melee to either the end of the impact phase, or the end of the movement phase.

Question - The rules seem to say that if routers are in contact at the start of the interbound phase they get cut down but it would seem to make more sense if it was at the end of the phase.

The problem was that a unit broke in melee - the rules say don't move it yet, but don't say when you do move it. Thus it was in contact at the start of the interbound phase.

[IainMcNeil]

Once again, thanks for the feedback

Note 1 - There was a little disultory missile fire at this point and throughout the battle there were a lot of missile phases where despite the possibility of hits there was no chance of either a cohesion test or a casualty.
>>> It is our intention that sporadic shooting should not have any risk of causing a cohesion test or element loss, otherwise it would increase the number of futile dice throws.

Note 2 - I was rather hoping that 12 elements of crossbow would be a bit of an issue for 6 elements of knights. My first volley caused a cohesion test but that was passed and Alan didn't roll the required 1 to fail a death roll.
>>> Element losses are not what the rules are about - its about forcing cohesion tests. It sounds like you got the right result.

Note 3 - Five dice at 4's caused another cohesion test and a chance of a death (1 in 6) but again the knights ignored it.
>>> Stop moaning

Note 4 - We calculated this as 2 dice for the French and 1 for the Hungarians (halved for skirmishers) with the Hungarians having one nett POA ++ for a flan attack but the French get + for knightly lancers.
>>> It will be clarified that a flank or rear attack is always at ++ and the enemy get not POA's.

Note 6 - This time there wan't really room for all the evaders and one element had to be placed on top of another element. We just played that the skirmishers were dissordered until they weren't on top of their friends but that may have been wrong.
>>> The next version will have clearer rules for evaders bursting through.


Question 1 - We had a quick check in the rules but coudn't find an answer to this one. Can a battlegroup charge, fail to contact then move?
>>> No

Question 2 - Flank charge on bow how many dice do the bow get? We played that as the crossbow were not engaged frontally and were two ranks deep that they got three dice but we were far from sure.
>>> Good point, we need to clarify that you cannot shoot if hit in the flank or rear, so only get 2 dice.

Question - can undrilled troops wheel and move short to 6" as a simple move or is is a complex? There is one outside 6" and one within 6" in the chart but no exactly 6".
>>> The CM system has been revised in the next version.

Question - move forward and contract, how far do you have to move forward?
>>> Good point. We need to decide this and put it in the next version.

Question - "In open terrain" is it the cavalry or what they are fighting, does the whole base or only part of it have to be in the terrain?
>>> This will be clarified in the next version. If the mounted have any part of a base in the terrain that base counts disordered and lose their lancer bonus/med foot bonus. The terrain only effects them if any part of the cavalry base enters the terrain. Note it is calculated per base, not per unit, so some of the unit might be disordered and the rest might be ok. However the unit counts as disordered for CMT's if any bases are in terrain.

Question - when is an element an overlap (specifically when can it shoot and not be shot at). After an impact phase with non alligned troops is the element that is next to the last element in partial contact counted as an overlap?
>>> We are resolving that in the next version by aligning troops during the movement phase.

Question - if a flank attacker is beaten off does the victorious unit just ignore it?
>>> It would behave normally, i.e. if not fighting frontally it would follow up if of a type that would normally do so.

Question - Does a ZOI from a flank prevent a second rank counting as an overlap forwards?
>>> Currently under discussion

Question - The rules seem to say that if routers are in contact at the start of the interbound phase they get cut down but it would seem to make more sense if it was at the end of the phase.
>>> Routers move at the end of the phase they rout and then again in the interbound phase, so they have already had one chance to outdistance their purusers before losing elements.

Concern - Having now played two games it seems to me that crossbow are roadkill to even half decent mounted troops. My understanding of history is that this should not be the case. If wavering knights outnumbered two to one can beat crossbow without good dice I fear there may be something wrong.
>>> There has been a lot of disucssion of this on the design forum. I'll try and bring it across later.